What was Luke supposed to do again?

In ROTJ, Yoda and Ben keep telling Luke that he has to defeat Vader. IIRC, they never mention him killing the Emperor, though. And considering that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda is able to defeat him, how did they expect Luke to?

 

"Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, can conquer Vader and his Emperor."

Yoda was training Luke to be able to take down both the Emperor and Vader.

 

Conquer doesn't have to mean "take down", in the case of Vader, it could mean turning him to the light side, which happens.

Actually, Vader was killed, taken down, and defeated, but it was Anikan who came back.

 

Agreed, isbagent1.

"Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, can conquer Vader and his Emperor." I think that was a Jedi "truth" they fed to Luke to make him believe he could do it. Since none of the Jedi Knights or Masters could defeat Vader and the Emperor, how could Luke possibly do it?

I think the plan all along was to use Luke to bring Anakin back, since Anakin was the only one powerful enough to destroy the Emperor. They knew that Vader couldn't be killed; he needed to be turned. His son and/or daughter were the only ones who had a chance.

 

Obi and Yoda were merely trying to shape Luke into a weapon. That's why they gave him a "crash course" in becoming a Jedi.

 

I don't think they planned on Vader turning from the Dark Side. I've gotta agree with Bib, Luke was trained for one purpose and that purpose was to kill Vader and then his master.

In ROTJ, Ben seemed displeased when Luke said he could not kill his father and Yoda was astonished/dissapointed that Luke knew the truth about Vader.

 

Ben and Yoda are very careful to always say "confront"; Luke didn't necessarily have to kill Vader to be a Jedi (although that's how he interpreted it), he simply had to face him, and in doing so face both the Dark Side (note the capital letters), and the dark side of his own family and existence.

The way I see it, Ben's response to "I can't kill my father" ("Then the Emperor has already won") didn't mean that Luke had to kill his father or that that was his goal, it simply meant that Luke had to be prepared for the all-to-real possibility of killing his father. Flat out saying he can't do it would be giving a victory to Vader and the Emperor.

 

I agree. Luke had to be prepared for the possibility that he would have to kill Vader.

 

Since none of the Jedi Knights or Masters could defeat Vader and the Emperor, how could Luke possibly do it?

Things were different then. Also, Luke was unable to defeat either without Vader's help.

Ben and Yoda had to be careful how they prepared Luke. Push him too far and he may not go at all. His swell of emotions could have got the best of him.

I would have loved to hear Ben say, 'Damn!' after Luke said he couldn't kill his own father.

 

If Ben and Yoda had intended for Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, why didn't they train him for 20 years? How does a crash course in training make him better prepared for that task? They didn't need Luke to be a fully trained Jedi. He just needed to be strong enough to confront the Dark Side and not turn. That's why they were disappointed when Luke left for Bespin in TESB. He wasn?t ready yet. They were fortunate.

Yoda wasn?t displeased with Luke knowledge of his father. His response to Luke?s ?Unfortunate that I know the truth?? was ?No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him, that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you.?

Regarding Ben's disappointment to Luke's "I can't kill my own father", if Luke was unwilling to kill his father, he was unwilling to face him. That's all Ben and Yoda wanted, not for him to run away as Leia had suggested later.

Their only chance was to have Anakin confront his own son. They figured that he couldn?t kill Luke; he would only try to turn him. Luke needed to be strong enough to deal with that. In TESB, Vader?s remark to the Emperor in TESB was ?He is just a boy. Obi-Wan can longer help him.? He wasn?t willing to kill Luke, and I think Ben and Yoda knew that. They used Anakin?s love for his son against his Vader persona.

Luke was indeed a weapon, but not as a killing machine.

 

Luke was they only one who could beat Vader because of the persoanl connection. I think the rest about the emporor would just happen in the domino efeect, maybe that is what Yoda thought.

 

Excellent post Capt. Needa. I also agree that Luke was merely the bait to lure Anakin away from the darkside. he was not being trained to kill Vader and the Emperor.

 

Then why didn´t Ben tell Luke in ANH: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force and became the evil Lord Darth Vader. However, there is still good in him and I believe that with your help, he can be turned back to become the good Anakin Skywalker once again."?

 

It's a part of the Hero's Journey; The hero must go beyond his mentors' teachings. Luke did this by saying no to violence. Unlike Yoda and Ben he knew that only love can conquer evil.

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Sorta like "So much did Luke love the Force, so he gave it his only dad, so all can have eternal life".

 

Also, because if Luke had even the slightest hint that Vader was his father, he might be reluctant to fight him. While on the other hand, if he believed that Vader killed his father, Luke would have no problem killing Vader.

 

Exactly my point! If he is trained to fight Vader, it means that they want him to kill his father.

 

>>>>Then why didn´t Ben tell Luke in ANH: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force and became the evil Lord Darth Vader. However, there is still good in him and I believe that with your help, he can be turned back to become the good Anakin Skywalker once again."?

Because that would have been going in with his own mission, which would have easily been manipulated. That would have been just as bad as telling him to steam in guns blazing and kill him, no matter what.

"Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally can conquer Vader and his emperor."

Also, if Luke hadn't been willing to kill Vader, then he would never have been in a position where the Emperor would have revealed that he wanted Luke to "take your fathers place at my side", and Vader wouldn't have turned on the Emperor.

 

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[i]Then why didn´t Ben tell Luke in ANH: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force and became the evil Lord Darth Vader. However, there is still good in him and I believe that with your help, he can be turned back to become the good Anakin Skywalker once again."? [/i][hr][/blockquote]If Yoda felt Luke wasn't ready for the knowledge that Vader was his father in TESB, what makes you think Luke would be ready for that burden in ANH?

When do Yoda or Ben [i]ever[/i] tell Luke he needs to fight Vader? It's always "you must [i]face[/i]...", "you will [i]confront...[/i]", "it is your destiny...". Do they teach him how to fight? No, they teach him how to defend. To be at peace, to be calm, to be under control. All of their lessons are to teach Luke to avoid the Dark Side. They believed that Anakin would not kill or allow his son to be killed. Luke had to be strong enough to not turn to the Dark Side, in order to bring Anakin back to the good side.

This ties in with the [i]Yoda was setting Luke up to GET MURDERED![/i] thread. Ben and Yoda knew that Luke could not defeat the Emperor. They couldn't, so there's absolutely no reason to expect that Luke could. Luke was indeed bait. He could only [i]kill[/i] Vader by turning to the Dark Side. This is why they were training Luke extensively to avoid the Dark Side, to prevent that from happening. They believed that Anakin wouldn't kill Luke, and needed Luke to stay on the good side by not killing Vader. This sets up the Emperor to try and kill Luke, thinking that Anakin would not allow his son to die, bringing him back to the good side to kill the Emperor.

 

It seems reasonable to assume that Luke was taught to fear the dark side(by telling him that Vader murdered Anakin) so that he wouldn´t turn in the end, but:

If Yoda felt Luke wasn't ready for the knowledge that Vader was his father in TESB, what makes you think Luke would be ready for that burden in ANH?

I think he wasn´t ready because they wanted Luke to be fully trained and fully understand the nature of the Force before he learned the truth. Then, he wouldn´t have any emotional connection with his father and would be able to kill him without giving in to hate.
If they really wanted him to turn Anakin back, though, they should´ve told him from the start.

 

Sorry guys...there was no redemption in Yoda and Obi Wan's plan. They wanted to Luke to kill Vader and Sideous. Period. They thought Anakin was iredeemable.

 

Then why didn´t Ben tell Luke in ANH: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force and became the evil Lord Darth Vader. However, there is still good in him and I believe that with your help, he can be turned back to become the good Anakin Skywalker once again."?

Then Luke would concentrate on redeeming his father, believing it was possible...which it might not be. Even with Ben and Yoda telling him it was impossible, he still persisted in trying to turn Vader. If they'd told him it was possible he would've been even more focused on turning him...not defeating the Emperor (which was the REAL problem).

Sorry guys...there was no redemption in Yoda and Obi Wan's plan. They wanted to Luke to kill Vader and Sideous. Period. They thought Anakin was iredeemable.

Why? I think Ben and Yoda were getting Luke ready for the worst-case scenario, that Vader was completely evil and Luke might be forced to kill him. Luke couldn't break down in the Emperor's throne room because he killed his dear old dad, that would make him an easy target for Palps.

 

>>>>If they really wanted him to turn Anakin back, though, they should´ve told him from the start.

Unless the whole point of their plan was for Anakin to tell him that he was his father...

 

Scott: I would believe that was the case if Yoda didn´t say to Obi-Wan, after Luke left: "Told you I did; Reckless is he. Now, matters are worse."

The reason they didn´t think Luke was ready to hear the truth was that if he found out too early, he would view Vader as his father and feel love for him instead of viewing him as a machine that needs to be destroyed. This is exactly what happened and it wasn´t something they had planned. But it was Luke´s destiny, which is why it happened.
Maybe EpIII will prove me wrong, but the way it looks now, I believe I´m right.

 

>>>>Scott: I would believe that was the case if Yoda didn´t say to Obi-Wan, after Luke left: "Told you I did; Reckless is he. Now, matters are worse."

As he says in ROTJ- because Luke wasn?t ready. As it was, he clearly wasn?t ready to know the truth, wasn?t ready to face Vader, and was incredibly lucky to survive the encounter having lost nothing more than his hand and his lightsaber.

>>>>The reason they didn´t think Luke was ready to hear the truth was that if he found out too early, he would view Vader as his father and feel love for him instead of viewing him as a machine that needs to be destroyed.

That?s pure speculation though. (Seems to me that the reason they didn?t think he was ready was because he wasn?t ?ready for the burden??)

If they wanted Luke to kill Vader, if that was their mission, then why don?t they tell him? (Given the ?CPOV? distinction between Vader and Anakin, ?defeating? or ?conquering? or ?destroying? Vader is exactly what they want him to do.)

And more to the point, why is the Dagobah cave (where Luke does exactly what you?re saying they want him to do) a failure?

>>>>Maybe EpIII will prove me wrong, but the way it looks now, I believe I´m right.

Likewise, I believe that I?m right. There?s simply too many elements that fit into place- such as Obi Wan effectively giving up the fight in ANH, nobody telling Luke to kill Vader, the dagobah cave, the prophecy etc. etc. (How much of this was in place in 1980/1983 is anybody?s guess though?)

 

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[i]Sorry guys...there was no redemption in Yoda and Obi Wan's plan. They wanted to Luke to kill Vader and Sideous. Period. They thought Anakin was iredeemable.[/i][hr][/blockquote]The Star Wars saga is a tale of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, and his eventual redemption. Ben and Yoda were a part of that. Luke and Leia were the [i]last[/i] hope, because Anakin's redemption was the only way to save the galaxy. Now, I'll concede that it's possible that Ben considered Anakin irredeemable since he said so, although I've already refuted that. But Yoda never did.

I'll ask again, when did Ben or Yoda tell Luke he must fight with or kill Vader and the Emperor? If they wanted Luke to kill Vader, why does Yoda teach Luke "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." If they wanted to kill Vader and the Emperor, why didn't they rebuild the Jedi order and do it themselves? They could have collected dozens of force sensitive children and trained them fo 20+ years. They didn't because all the Jedi in the galaxy couldn't do it. They needed something else. They needed Luke to come of age to save his father. They needed a savior, [i]A New Hope[/i].

Also, what about Luke?s training? When he left Yoda in TESB, his training was incomplete. Yet when he returns after facing Vader, Yoda tells him ?No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.? Did losing to Vader train Luke in how to defeat him? No. Luke was confronted with the Dark Side and renounced it. [i]That[/i] complete his training. That?s what Ben and Yoda wanted. Anakin hadn?t been saved yet though, which is why they kept telling Luke that he must confront Vader again.

[blockquote][hr][i]Unless the whole point of their plan was for Anakin to tell him that he was his father... [/i][hr][/blockquote]Except that Yoda told Luke that that was unexpected. It seems that Ben and Yoda wanted to tell him when he was ready, which he wasn't in TESB. For their plan to work however, they did need Anakin to accept Luke as his son.

[blockquote][hr][i]And more to the point, why is the Dagobah cave (where Luke does exactly what you?re saying they want him to do) a failure? [/i][hr][/blockquote]Very good point, Scott3eyez!

[blockquote][hr][i]?but the way it looks now, I believe I´m right. [/i][hr][/blockquote]But have you been able to successfully refute our arguments? Can you point out any flaws in our use of dialog and actions that support our contention?