What was Palpatine's original plan?

Based on our information from the movies so far, what do you think was Palpatine's original plan?

He wanted Qui Gon and Obi Wan dead, so Naboo would've turned out much differently.

Would Anakin have been found by someone else?

How would the occupation of Naboo have ended?

Would the clones still have been ordered?

Would Padme have been killed?

 

I don't think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were part of the plan, considering it was Valorum who sent them there in the first place.

 

It was Palpatine´s suggestion to send the Jedi to negotiate. As Sidious, he used them as an excuse to accelerate the plans and invade Naboo illegally. The TF was then supposed to kill the Jedi and Amidala would be forced to sign the treaty to make the invasion legal. Palpatine could then create a vote of no confidence in Valorum and gain sympathy votes as he candidated for Supreme Chancellor.
Had Amidala refused to sign the treaty, Sidious would order the TF to kill her. Palpatine could use that situation to create a vote of no confidence as well.
And if the Jedi survived and succeeded in rescuing Amidala, Sidious would send out Maul to kill them and bring her back to Naboo.
Should all these plans fail and Amidala arrive at Coruscant(as she did in the film), he could use her for the vote of no confidence.
The vote was always Palpatine´s main objective.

 

Anakin Skywalker would most likely have been found later by someone else, yes. But perhaps it was fate that Qui and Obi survived the TF, rescued Amidala and landed on Naboo?

Anyway: As I said, I think Palpatine planned it so that he would get the vote of no confidence no matter what. As Supreme Chancellor, he probably made life pretty difficult for the TF by first kicking them out from the senate and then giving them more restrictions. They would be useful later as enemies against the Republic.
Perhaps the clone war idea came to Sidious when Dooku left the Republic and started the Separatist movement. Or he always planned to create a war in order to get more power.

 

this one is fun

padmae would have either died or been enslaved. but that does not matter. palpatine still would have become chancellor. anakin would never have been found. the clones still would be ordered. everything would still happen except palpatine wins. because anakin was never found.

thats the catch as qui gon says it was the will of the force. it was no accident.

 

That´s right! The return of the Jedi is all Qui-Gon´s doing!

....I mean the Force´s doing, of course....

 

>> I don't think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were part of the plan, considering it was Valorum who sent them there in the first place.

Qui Gon and Obi Wan weren't part of Palpatine's plan, but Palpatine (as Sidious) ordered the Trade Federation to kill them.

If Qui Gon and Obi Wan were killed, everything in the trilogy would be affected.

Concerning the clones being ordered, do you think Palpatine's plan was to develop the seeds of Civil War in the Trade Federation, with plans for that war in ten years?

If that was Palpatine's plan, it could be plausible that he actually convinced a leading member of the Jedi council (Sifo-Dyas) to order the clones based on the Naboo occupation. Darth Maul would've been in Palpatine's plan, possibly leaving Dooku within the Jedi order.

 

All along Palpatine knew the Jedi would come and find Anakin. The only place they could go was Tatooine he had planned it that way. Everything he does goes as he wants. Even his own death was his plan. Are you telling me that Palps was so intelligent to pull the whole thing off but did not expect to be killed by Vader after torturing his son which he still cared for. The Senate was corrupt. Palpatine destroyed it so it could be rebuilt better. He knows all about bringing balance to the force. He is the true hero of the saga when you think about it. The Great Puppet master who saved the Republic. He got Anakin on purpose and put him with Obi who was too young to train him. He paired Ani with Padme and made sure Shimi was killed. The greatest hero of the movies is Palpatine.

 

No, Palpatine originally called for the killing of both Obi-Wan and Qui Gon. Did you forget his request of the Trade Federation to kill them? Palpatine's original plan did not include Obi Wan teaching and finding Anakin.

Now since Palpatine wanted these two Jedi dead, they were obviously interfering with his plan.

My question is what was that original plan? It seems that Palpatine was using that both to become elected Chancellor and to order the clones.

Both did happen, but I think Palpatine (as Chancellor) wanted to be the one to remove the Trade Federation, NOT the Jedi. Palpatine would've looked like the hero by resolving the situation and setting up a future confrontation with the Trade Federation.

 

I don't believe that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were involved in Palpy's plan at all. If Valorum sent diplomats, they would either be disappeared or outright killed, and if those diplomats were Jedi, then it still wouldn't have made a difference.

The fate of Naboo was inconsequential to Palpatine. He always planned on invasion, and he always wanted to use Amidala to instigate the vote of no confidence, either directly or by using the TF to force her to sign the treaty, which Palpatine could use to show Valorum's incompetence.

The Jedi were never expected to go to Tatooine, because they were never expected to live long enough to actually get to Naboo. Anakin Skywalked never figured into Palpatine's original plan. If he ever was involved in the ultimate plan, then it would have been one of the later plans for galactic domination.

The Clone Army seemed to have always been in Palpatine's plan, since Lama Su (or was it Taun Wi?) said that the clones had been growing for ten years in EPII. That would mean that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones just after Episode I. So, either Palpatine had planned for a Clone War all along, or he is one of the fastest thinkers in the universe and managed to create a huge and costly plan within weeks.

Dooku also wasn't involved in the original plan. He didn't leave the order until around the time that Sifo-Dyas died, which was after Palpatine got his plans slightly altered in TPM. If Palpatine had planned for a seperatist movement, then he probably either would have put Nute Gunray or one of his "friends" like Tarkin in charge of it.

The Death Star also was not part of the original plan, since he did not find out about it until it was presented to him about four years after TPM.

It is important to remember that Palpatine didn't have complete control of the galaxy until ANH, when the Senate was dissolved. His power was still held in check to some degree by the Senate, even if they were under his thumb (which doesn't seem so likely, since Leia and several other rebel-friendly individuals were serving in it up until the dissolution) Palpatine probably was planning on a slow, thorough transformation of the Republic beurocracy until it was entirely dependent upon him before he took any action against the senate. I think that the only reason that Palpatine took the risk of causing the empire to dissolve in ANH by eliminating the top ranking beurocrats all at once was because he knew that he could frighten the galaxy into submission with the Death Star. He was just lucky that the Moffs remained loyal to him after Palpatine lost his primary method of bringing them back into line.

 

Palpatine ordered their death but he knew they would not be killed. Palpatine knew that the federation was too weak and incompetant to be able to kill two jedi. Palpatine is not a fool he knew this and he knew all about Anakin.

 

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were part of Palpatine´s original plan. Their arrival at the TF flagship was what got things going. They were the excuse Sidious needed in front of the neimoidians to begin the invasion without first making it legal.
He had nothing to do with the finding of Anakin, though, since he knew nothing of the boy. If he had known about Anakin, he would´ve sent Maul or someone else or went there himself to pick him up. Why would he plan to convert him from the Jedi when he could train him as a Sith from the beginning?

 

I get the whole thing about the Vote of No Confidence, but why did Palpatine still have Maul support the TF after he was elected Chancellor? You'd have figured he would've just abandoned the TF after that, and he really had no reason not to. Had he simply done that he would've still had Maul as an apprentice.

 

6-6-6,

I never stated that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were involved in Palpatine's plan. However, he did order the Trade Federation to kill the two Jedis who were sent by Valorum.

And sorry, but Dooku was involved early in Palpatine's original plan. You contradicted yourself later in admitting to the fact. Sifo-Dyas could not have ordered the clones without Dooku being involved, for it was Dooku who recruited Jango to be the individual to be cloned.

Your four years after TPM for the Death Star is not in the movies and therefore not concidered canon.

 

No. Absolutely not. Having Qui-Gon killed was never something Palpatine could forsee. The only real part Qui-Gon played in the movies was bringing Anakin to the Council, and I suppose that was a big one, but he didn't really make an IMPACT. By an IMPACT, I mean Obi-Wan style or Anakin style. There was nothing ABOUT him that really couldn't have been done by any other well-meaning Knight. The point I'm trying to make here is that Qui-Gon played no role whatsoever in Palpatine's plan at ALL. The only reason Palpatine ordered the TF to kill them was because they were interferring WITH his plan: to get elected Supreme Chancellor.

And sorry, but Dooku was involved early in Palpatine's original plan.

Really? I never believed that. I think Palpatine hired Dooku right after Maul was killed. It fits into the time line perfectly with the ten years things and such.

Anakin Skywalker also was never part of the plan. There was no way, no possible, logical way, for Palpatine to have known about Anakin. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were never part of the plan, and neither was Anakin. Palpatine thought his agents could kill the two Jedi, but he was wrong. It was happenstance that the Jedi arrived on Tatooine and Maul followed them there. Pure and total happenstance.

The Death Star also was not part of the original plan, since he did not find out about it until it was presented to him about four years after TPM.[/u]

Agreed, although I'm confused about the four years? ? Elaborate?

It seems that Palpatine was using that both to become elected Chancellor and to order the clones.

It always seemed that way to me. Palpatine did it all to get elected Chancellor.

-Krystal
Endless steps end in endless miles...

 

The only thing that Palpatine/Sidious didn't count on, I think, was the arrival of Obi-Wan and Qui Gon on the Trade Federation control ship. True, he probably knew that Naboo was sending people to negotiate, but he had no idea they were going to be Jedi! He probably thought that the Jedi Council was on to him and he wanted to have the Jedi killed immediately.

 

Krystal,

The exact timing of Dooku joining Sidious is impossible to know, but I'm including the fact the Sidious had to recruit Dooku, then Dooku had to recruit Jango, then Jango had to go to Kamino for the cloning. Each of these three actions had to take some amount of time.

As a side note (and I'm sure this has been mentioned previously), what did Boba think when he saw his "father's" clones fighting for the other side?

 

Nute Gunray told Dooku about Sidious after TPM.
I think Dooku contacted Sidious then(without letting Gunray know) and Sidious fitted Dooku into his plans.

 

I never saw Nute Gunray tell Dooku about Sidious after TPM.

Is this EU? If so, then again, it's not canon.

 

Ever heard of a film called Attack of the Clones? In it, Dooku explains to Obi-Wan:

- The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago, by the dark lord. He came to me, begging for help. He told me everything.
You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together, we will destroy the Sith!

 

I invite all to please post some sources for some of your claims that were not seen on film. I'm not an EU fan and some of the things stated here seem outlandish.

Back to topic, from a strictly movie perspective, Palp's plan was to a) get himself elected Supremem Chancellor and b) get an army to back him up, and c) exterminate the Jedi (in that order).
To do this he had to discredit Valorum and increase his own popularity while sinking the galaxy into war. It mostly went as planned except for the Jedi. If Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had been killed, then Palps/Trade Fed WOULD HAVE INVADED ANYWAY, and occupied Naboo. Palps would have showen that Valorum couldn't handle the situation and would play victim, get himself elected (this ended up happening anyway). He would also have demonstrated that the Jedi were powerless to stop the invasion and would work towards doing away with them.
No Anakin (unless the Force willed him to be found by some other means).

 

Lars,

Your quote from AOTC tells us nothing of a timeline for when Dooku and Gunray met.

Your assumption is that after Naboo, Gunray met with Dooku, Dooku then met with Sidious, Dooku then recruited Jango and Jango then went to Kamino? That seems highly unlikely in a short period of time while Sifo-Dyas (or someone portraying him) ordered the clones and Sifo-Dyas later died.

If you're assuming all of this just happened, I would have to say that Palpatine had all of this planned as well.

And if that's the case, then did Palpatine have both Dooku and Maul at the same time?

k-man,

I agree with your post. But did Palpatine plan the clones all along?

 

Unlikeliness doesn´t make it impossible. Palpatine most likely had it all planned. Maybe he had planned for Maul to recruit Jango and was looking for someone else to do the job when Dooku showed up.
Note that I´m not saying that Maul was meant to be a separatist leader, though. The separatist movement was probably Dooku´s invention, something he had thought about before he met Sidious. If he hadn´t started that, Sidious would´ve had to get something else(but similar) going. Now he didn´t have to and it all worked much more smoothly than planned. The will of the Force?

 

Palpatine´s plan to get the Empire going has 3 phases:

1-Get elected as Supreme Chancellor.
2-Get a war going to get emergency powers.
3-The final transformation of the Republic into the Empire and the end of the Jedi Order.

1-Palpatine used a crisis invloving his home planet,so we could be well known in Senate circles.The sole purpose of TPM is Palpatine´s election as Supreme Chancellor.The death of Maul was a bad side-efect which caused Palpy/Sidious to recruit Dooku.By the end of TPM,Sidious himself ordered the Clone Army,posing as Sifo-dyas.

2-The war was vital for the emergency powers.Only a war could give emergency powers to the Supreme Chancellor.Palpatine used Dooku to create the right oppositon(able to fight a big scale war).With the Clone Wars,great number of Jedi would be killed since they turned into generals.Also(now this is EU)the Jedi Order would star dying from the inside;in a clone war novel ("Shaterpoint" I think) it is said that many Jedi are against the military use of the Order and actually refuse to follow some orders.

3-With the end of the Clone War,it was time for the wash-up.Palpatine could blame the Jedi for trying to take the power-after all it was a Jedi that ordered the Clone Army before a resolution was passed ordering it.I have a feeling that the public opinion in the galaxy is a little anti-Jedi.Look at the scenes,in TPM,envolving Panaka and Qui-Gon-it seems that there are unwritten tensions between them.This could be a great argument in favor of the Jedi Purge.Probably some Jedi will be involved in the formation of the Rebel Alliance.This is the new enemy for the Republic/Empire,so Palpatine still maintains his emergency powers.In ANH we see the end of his schemes,with the end of the Senate.This marks the formal end of the Old Republic(it probably really ended years before the events of TPM).

 

Hmm. Palpatine's original plan. Let's see what we can rule out for sure, and later we can try to piece it all together. Here goes:

1. Neither, Kenobi, Jinn, nor Skywalker were involved at all. My reasoning is that he'd never heard of them. Further, he already had an apprentice (Maul) and already had the Federation begin the blockade.

2. For the most part, nothing that happens in AOTC was ever planned. My reasoning is that things changed drastically with the introduction of Anakin, the death of Maul, and the toppling of the Federation's plans on Naboo. Further, its also impossible given the way things developed in AOTC. For instance, neither he nor Maul could've lead the CIS, which got a lot of its credibility from the Trade Federation. Why? Because the Sith are what disillusioned the TF with the Republic in the first place, if you remember Dooku's speech.

3. The call for the Vote of No Confidence is questionable. It seemed like a kind of "on-the-fly" suggestion, and happened because Padme was actign in ways Sidious had specifically stated he didn't expect her to. The alternative--calling for a Vote of No Confidence as a government-in-exile, with no power what so ever--has serious obstacles in the way of its success. Furthermore, since Maul seems to be, shall we say "the silent type" Sidious had to do all political negotiation for the Sith. So since he wouldn't have had a politically apt apprentice like Dooku, we figure he would've had to build support for any political movements he needed in the shadows, as Sidious. This would leave little time for running the Republic. So I would ultimately say no, this wasn't planned either.

4. I would also question whether long-term power was his goal at all. After all, Maul did not seem like the kidn of person capable of carrying of what Sidious did as Palpatine. Further, without the Vote of No Confidence, it's not even clear that even Palpatine ever would've gotten into power.

I guess, in sum, we don't have much to go off of. All we know, in terms of Palpatine's motivation, is that, as a Sith, he wants to "have his revenge" against the Jedi. He seems to want to accomplish this partly through political power and partly through outright force. It's really not clear though, what direction he intended to take the Trade Federation ordeal. Especially in regards to how it would lead to the extinction of the Jedi.

Thoughts?