CT What was Palpatine's plan in the throne room in RotJ?

It's decanonized. Lords of the Sith states in the very first paragraph that Vader's force connection grew after Mustafar.

Anakin wanted to kill Palps while his brain was on dark side drugs, when he later got himself under control he didn't want to kill Palps for a long, long time.

 

Yet, Vader is very much cold and ruthless following his operation and learning that Padme was dead. The good within him is gone and he show no signs of even caring about anyone or anything. Not until Luke showed up.

He's needs his limbs to walk, to fly his TIE Advanced, to lift people up with his left arm and to fight with. He's not going to be floating in the air, using the Force. He's not going to be like this guy...

It's not de-canonized. He is stronger than he was, which is a reference to the ROTS novelization and "Dark Lord" where Vader notes that he isn't as strong as he used to be. And as I said, he is strong enough to keep an Imperial Walker afloat fifteen years later. But he's not stronger than Palpatine and never will be. Palpatine could still kick his ass six ways from Sunday, just like he did with Maul and Savage. That's why he still needs Luke's help to overthrow Palpatine. Otherwise, he would have used the Inquisitors to do so.

 

I was just thinking about this yesterday. What if Luke does kill the Emperor when Palps goads him into it? What if Vader doesn't defend his master?

 

It might not be enough. That's why Vader blocked the blow and engaged Luke.

 

"I must obey my master". At that point Vader is still in lock-step with the Emperor's will.

 

Going off on a slight tangent here, but I always found it funny that Vader insisted on obeying Palpatine more than Anakin Skywalker ever did to Obi-Wan.

 

He can't let Luke slaughter Palpatine, because Luke can't be turned that quickly. Luke first has to immerse himself in the dark side.

 

Well - Palpatine was also annoyed and angry that Anakin had screwed up from the moment he got 'half-baked' on Mustafar - he also was always on the hunt for a Powerful Sith Apprentice - given how Anakin become a 'fill in' and how he remarked how Anakin was practically a WEAK OLD MAN IN A SUIT LONG OVERDUE along those lines in the EU... and how Palpatine himself was always seeking for a new Powerful Apprentice - and the angrier the better in a sense ... and I doubt its just 'wants to kill me' given surely Palpatine did want to live forever and like many if not all Sith - motivated by a fear ... a fear of Physical Death ...

 

Why do you bring up the old EU in regards to this discussion?

The NEU already contradicts a lot of statements in the old EU.

How it is in the NEU:
Palps was disappointed in Anakin directly after ROTS, so he paid for a project about potential replacement Vader's (but he would keep Vader as apprentice for ceremonial purposes). This disappointment however vanished later when Vader proved most effective, in the Tarkin novel he wants to rule with Vader at his side eternally. In Lords of the Sith (which takes place about 4 years after ROTS I believe?) he appears very interested in furthering the progress of his student. After ANH he is disappointed and demotes Vader because he blames him for the destruction of the Death Star and even for the idea of the Death Star (which of course was his very own brainchild). Now we don't know what happens later, only that Vader now despises Palpatine yet commands the imperial forces in TESB and ROTJ. Huh? Something weeeird is going to happen in Gillen's comics.

But what we can already tell: Palpatine is a petty person who changes his mind a lot.

 

Palpatine wouldn't have just let himself be killed by Luke. He probably knew Vader had treacherous thoughts before, so he couldn't have been simply counting on him saving his ass at the last minute. If Vader hadn't blocked Luke's saber, Palps would've used the Force to defend himself and easily disarm Luke.

Now, about Palpy's masterplan. His plan was to basically get Luke to strike down his father in anger. That's the first step to get him a taste of the Dark Side. Then there's the rather obscure quote from Vader: "Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way to save your friends." And I think you can read two ways into this. First, and what it was probably originally meant to mean, is simple blackmail. In essence, "Become a bad guy with us and we'll spare your buddies." I guess Luke could have taken the bait, thinking he'll pretend to be on their side until his friends are safe, only to get hooked on the power.
RotS could also be considered as expanding the meaning of this quote. Maybe Vader is referring to Darth Plagueis' Midi-Chlorian influencing ability, meaning he's promising the same thing to Luke that Palpatine promised to Anakin in RotS: Learn to use the Dark Side of the Force, and you will be able to save your friends from certain death.

 

But later he also turns his back on Vader while frying his son. He behaves as if he underestimates Vader imo.

 

Yes, I think he is underestimating him, but more importantly, he had no idea that Vader could turn back to the light then and there. Palpatine couldn't stop Vader from grabbing him, but he could still fry his suit, killing him in return. Vader obviously wouldn't have done this if his plan was to become Emperor with Luke as his apprentice. Only by returning to the light, which was thought to be impossible by everyone, was such a selfless sacrifice possible.

 

That is ironic. I think Vader was adamant about trying to overthrow and replace Sidious in TESB partly because Sidious wasn't near him and he wanted to entice Luke immediately. But as soon as Sidious was there, Vader was fearful and obedient. Also, Vader is quite conflicted in ROTJ, since he had had time to think about how his revelation to Luke affected him. He viewed Luke as a mirror of what he could have been, filling him with conflict, regret, jealousy, regret, etc. I think young Anakin was headstrong, but Darth Vader had lost everything and didn't give a **** anymore. As much as he hated Sidious, he was the closest thing to a friend he had. I think those conflicted feelings for both Luke and Palpatine come into play in ROTJ.

At any rate, I agree with Darth Sinister. I think that Luke attacking Sidious would have been foolhardy even if Vader wasn't able to intercept him. By the point of Dark Empire, Luke would have been a strong enough Jedi to battle Sidious, but not during ROTJ. Sidious would finish him off.

 

Palpatine didn't believe that Vader had enough of the ambition to overthrow him and what's more, he couldn't sense the conflict within him. Not enough to sense the impending betrayal.

 

Yes, and part of that was due to his own hubris. He just never saw it coming, since he was used to Vader being subservient. But that annoyed Sidious, and he was tired of it. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious contemplated that it was necessary for Vader, as the Sith apprentice, to have the ambition to overthrow his Sith Master. I imagine he wanted that partly because he's Palpatine and he enjoys manipulating people and destroying them. But for a guy who called the Jedi dogmatic...he was dogmatic as a Sith, and he thought Vader was a wimp for not trying to overthrow him.

 

Well, in the new Darth Vader comics he seems to make his best effort to piss Vader off and steer him into treason. Which, as we know, results in Sidious' own demise. So well done, I guess?

 

His demise had nothing to do with what happened in the comic and everything to do with saving Luke at the expense of his own life. If Vader had no good within him, then Luke would be dead and the Sith would escape in time.

 

Exactly. If Vader had done nothing to save Luke, he and Sidious would have fled the Death Star II before its annihilation.

 

Actually, I think the Emperor's plan might have been exactly what it was in Dark Empire.

Had Luke killed Vader, his next target would have been Palpatine. No doubt. So: Palpatine then defeats and humiliates Luke and proceeds to kill Luke's friends and wipe out the Rebellion. Then it's time to go to work with basically the same pitch he used in Dark Empire.

"Your friends are dead. The Rebellion is finished. You want to kill me. I know you do. I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger. Your hate has made you powerful ... but not powerful enough. If you wish to destroy me, you must master the ways of the Dark Side. You must learn all my secrets if you wish to avenge your friends. Only through me can you achieve a power great enough to one day set the galaxy right. It is the only way."

 

His plan was simple, convert Luke to the dark side. If he killed Vader so be it, he got a newer model. If Vader survived and Luke was converted it had two. If Luke died by Vader he kept Vader and the threat of Luke was gone.

 

My view is Sidious always being on the lookout for a stronger apprentice. If Vader is indeed stronger than Luke he will come out victorious. Vader becoming his apprentice in the same way by killing Dooku only knows this all too well. This is why he is so dejected throughout the movie, he knows it will come down to himself or his son.