PT What was the original idea for Padme's death?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 22, 2012.

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  1. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    In ROTS, Padme died moments after Luke and Leia were born and given to adoptive parents by Yoda, Obi-wan, and bail Organa. And for some reason Leia remembered Padme, but Luke didn't. This is not a thread about how Leia remembered Padme, this is about, before episode 3 came out, how fans imagined Padme's death to happen.

    Most thought that Padme would go to live on Alderaan with Leia for several years, but would die for some reason? According to that theory, what would be her cause of death? What were other fan theories about this before Revenge of the Sith came out?
  2. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    My own fan theory pre-ROTS was that she was poisoned in a way that would kill her slowly, so that we would know at the end of ROTS that she would die, but it wouldn't happen onscreen, and Bail would take her to Alderaan with Leia.

    I still prefer that version to what we got.

    I also had a theory that Palpatine would have her killed but would frame the Jedi for it. And I remember reading a fan fic in the late 90s in which Anakin sees a hologram of Padme dying and an ignited lightsaber nearby, but he could not tell the color of the lightsaber through the hologram and assumed the Jedi were responsible.
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    I would totally eliminate the scene where Obi wan gets off the spaceship and anakin thinks that padme brought him there. Anakin went mad with grief for over 20 years in the darkside as Darth Vader, because he believed he was responsible for padme's death, with the force choke. All because obi wan sneaked onto the ship. If obi wan never did that, anakin wouldn't force choke padme and believe the lie that he killed her, thereby driving him mad and deeper into darkside, sealing his fate as the evil tyrant from the originals. He was consumed in the darkside, because he believed a lie. She lost the will to live. It wasn't the force choke, but if obi wan never snuck on the ship, he wouldn't have force choked her and believed the emperor's lie.

    If obi wan never snuck on the ship, the events in the originals never would have happened.

    Anyway, the problem with the theory above is this. Why would she go live with Leia? Why not take the 2 children together and stay with them? I never understood why Luke and leia couldn't be kept together. And how would she be poisoned?

    I originally imagined Vader/Anakin to be directly responsible for Padme's death, before the cheesy, she lost the will to live explanation. Or the emperor explanation made sense, especially if he had force lightning or blamed the Jedi.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    I hate ROTS badly enough without having Vader directly responsible for her death. As I see it, in no way should he have ever attacked her in the first place.

    In my theory the children had to be separated for the same reason they were separated in canon--they were safer from the Emperor that way. As far as how she could be poisoned, any number of ways, Wook lists something like 40 different poisons.

    I agree that Obi-Wan should not have snuck on Padme's ship, but I'm reluctant to directly blame Obi-Wan and that act for the events that followed.
  5. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    How were they safer from the Emperor if they were kept safer? It would be very unsafe, obviously, if obi wan gave luke and leia to vader and the emperor, but why not keep them together, with the same adopted parents? Luke and Leia with the organas, luke and leia with the lars, luke and leia together with padme, etc? I never understood that plot point, of separating the twins.
  6. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

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    There is a point to having Vader directly responsible for her death, it shows the darkest depths of the dark side and the effect of Sidious's manipulations. I am pretty sure what you want is to editorialize a fall to the dark side. The dark side is portrayed the way it was for a very specific reason, the dark side is simply not to be trifled with.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Oct 22, 2012
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  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    It is also a homage to cyborg Vader's force choke on the imperial officers/soldiers in the original trilogy. But I think Vader should have been directly responsible though. Just not with obi wan sneaking on the ship. That was one of the worst thing about the prequels. That, and, her dying of a broken heart.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 22, 2012
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  8. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    No, I don't, but the assumption that you or anyone else can get inside my head from the other side of your computer screen and tell me what I "really" want, is always fun. Do you really think I am not articulate enough to explain what I "really" want? And is there any reason I couldn't simply disagree with you about what constitutes the "darkest depths of the dark side" (as opposed to "let's insert some cool dark acts to appease the people who like to see Vader doing cool dark acts") and whether that scene was necessary without your assuming I have some ulterior motive?

    And the idea that Vader Force-chokes needed any sort of "homage" proves my point about that scene being inserted to show Vader doing "cool" dark stuff just for the hell of doing "cool" dark stuff.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Oct 22, 2012
  9. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

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    The scenes seem necessary to me, but then again I believe understand why Lucas portrayed things the way he did and see no reason whatsoever to change it.
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    After remembering the Star Wars fandom in 2002-ish complaining that Anakin was "too whiny" and "not evil enough" and/or "not badass enough," that scene and the younglings scene looked like a move designed for the "Vader is a cool badass" crowd, just a Grievous looked like a move designed for the "we need a cool villain with multiple lightsabers" crowd.

    But unless someone has asked him why he put it there, we won't really know.
  11. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    Back in the 1990s, my theory was that Palpatine killed Padme (or whoever she was) with Force lightning, perhaps because she was the last opponent to his taking power. Anakin/Vader (most likely pre-duel & suit) stood by and allowed it to happen, as Padme begged him to help her. Then Anakin walked away.

    Direct correlation with Palps zapping Luke on the Death Star in ROTJ - Vader looks on & finally decides, "I can't let this happen again".
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 23, 2012
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  12. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

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    I had this idea that, just to make the love story really Romeo&Juliet-like, Anakin would see one of Padmé's handmaidens getting killed by Dooku for whatever reason and believe that it was Padmé (a bit farfetched, I know). This would make him turn to the dark side.
    Later on, as Anakin and Obi-Wan fight eachother, Padmé would come running, yelling at Anakin to stop. Anakin, shocked at seeing Padmé alive, would then stumble and fall into the infamous molten pit.
    Padmé would be beside herself with grief, but live on for a little while longer. She would give birth to Luke and Yoda would tell Obi-Wan to take him to Tatooine. After Obi-Wan's departure, it would be revealed that another kid was on its way. Padmé would plead with Yoda not to take Leia from her. Then, a situation would arise where Padmé would shield Leia from harm, getting mortally wounded in the process. Bail would take mother and daughter to Alderaan, where a funeral for Padmé would be held.

    This idea was never completely thought through, but I think it had potential. I love the way it turned out in the movie, though!





    Romeo - he made a mistake
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Oct 23, 2012
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  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    Why did the twins have to be separated? Why not keep Luke and Leia together? I don't see how that would be dangerous for them? What does the emperor/vader have to do with that?

    Padme losing the will to live made no sense. She gave birth to Luke and Leia, the characters from the original trilogy! She couldn't live for them? I also don't like why she lost the will to live either.
  14. Samnz Jedi Master

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    That's why I will always prefer Padmé's death in ROTS over any possible survival scenario. Even if it was "in the best interest" of all of them, but I can't see Padmé as a mother who chooses one child (Leia, to live with her) over another (Luke, who had to go to uncle Ben). If Padmé had survived, she would have kept them both with her.

    Well, there's nothing Padmé could offer to her children.
    With her being alive, Luke's and Leia's childhood would have been all about fleeing and hiding, because the Emperor and Vader knew about their Force potential and would have searched for them endlessly.
    With her death, she allowed her children to live a relatively "happy" childhood and I think that's what it's all about in the end, for a mother.
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  15. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    So she willed herself to die? That doesn't make any sense.

    I agree. It sounds like a bad idea for Padme to chose one child over the other, all convoluted. I prefer her dying in ROTS, and having her survive ROTS is a bad idea. It's symbolism too. Luke and Leia are brought into this world, Padme is gone forever, the galaxy lost one other person, and her death happens the same time as the galaxy's rebirth into what it was in the originals, those imperial soldeirs with their green/gray uniforms. That happened the same time as Anakin/Vader being born as the cyborg samurai.

    Why not keep Luke and Leia together, with the same adopted parents? That's a plot hole. I never understood that.
  16. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

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    Because if one is discovered, the other will remain hidden.
    Padmé doesn't exactly will herself to die, but she allows it because her children will be safer with her dead. Everyone, the Emperor included, will assume that her unborn offspring died with her.





    Padmé died a hero
    /LM
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    Yeah, palpatine wanted to turn the skywalker twins to the darkside, no doubt about that.

    But I still don't think padme should have lost the will to live. If I was George Lucas, I would've written it totally different.
  18. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

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    I would probably have done it differently, too. I think Lucas should keep thinking the way he does, though. We need artists like him - artists who do things their own way.





    Lucas - he is unique
    /LM
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Exactly.
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  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan

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    How did Padme die a hero? I don't think she acted heroically in ROTS, especially torwards the end. That's the impression I got.
  21. -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master

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    I never thought about it this way. That she's basically sacrficing her life to hide her kids. Still, her death is a bit too weird, especially that she's not a Jedi.
  22. Narutakikun Jedi Knight

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    I think it's more "an hero", in the /b/ sense.
  23. Felicia Jedi Youngling

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    When Luke and Leia are born Leia has her eyes open and she can see Padme. Luke's eyes are closed.
  24. battlefrontboy Jedi Youngling

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    I had the same basic idea. Anakin thinks Padme is dead, then he commits suicide by jumping into a lava pit. Then Padme thinks Anakin is dead and dies during childbirth.
  25. kainee Jedi Padawan

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    I think that maybe the execution of how Padme died could have been fiddled around with but I think the idea and reasoning behind her death is rather sound. In order for all of the events of Episodes IV and on to make sense, Anakin needs to not have a reason to redeem himself. Obi-Wan would have been a possible choice for waking Anakin up but his loyalty to the Jedi Order has tainted him in Anakin's eyes (as can be seen in the scene between them when the Council has Kenobi tell Anakin they wish him to spy on Palpatine). The only one who would have possibly pulled Anakin back was Padme. Despite his initial rejection of her plea with him to not continue falling to the Dark side, there was still a chance she could have pulled him back if she had lived to continue trying (this is a key difference between Padme and Luke since Padme doesn't survive her first encounter with Vader but Luke does at the cost of a hand and lives to try again). I really don't think that if Padme had lived for a period of time after Mustafar that a) she would've agreed to the Jedi choosing to split the twins up or even allowing the Jedi to make the decisions on how to rear her children; b) she would've laid low as even when the Empire had been established in all but name, she still was trying her best to do her job such as with her being part of the Coalition of 2000; or c) she would've accepted Anakin staying as Vader as an unchangeable fact like Yoda or Obi-Wan did (her dying words were to this effect). So, story-wise, Padme was doomed to not live for very long after Anakin reveals to her that he's fallen to the Dark side. This is why, regardless of what had been worked out for her death during the original trilogy era or before they went with what finally appeared on screen, I can understand the timing of her death.

    Additionally, having Palpatine be the culprit of Padme's death would've likely set up the situation that made Vader snap back into Anakin in Return of the Jedi and in my opinion, would have really made it illogical for Vader's loyalty in the early days of the Empire where treachery on Vader's part when things were still so unstable would've been much more devastating than later on when the Empire was much more established (one thing I do agree with the EU on is I don't think Palpatine's death could completely destroy the Empire even if the Alliance worked quickly to take advantage of the power vacuum). This is why I think it works better for Anakin himself to be a key factor in Padme's death (it is arguable if he was a direct or indirect cause but I think we can all agree that the Force choke was definitely not good for her continuing to live). With Anakin having responsibility for Padme's death, it maintains the same mental and emotional restrictions Anakin was going through before he turned-- staying with the Dark Side allows him to continue rationalizing all of the actions he took as Vader that were anathema to Anakin rather than confronting the hard truth, much like going to the Dark to take up Sidious' offer to help with fixing everything was much easier than going it alone (even if he wasn't alone, Anakin sure felt it) trying to find a Jedi way to save Padme which still had no guarantee of working. The secret marriage, insecurity, and fear of loss that powered Anakin's fall was of his making, so to have his guilt over Padme's death, need to justify the great cost that his new powers were gained at, and the fear of losing Palpatine (who has ended up being the only one who he can rely on even if it is to be reliably manipulative) be the reasons for why Anakin continues to be Vader makes a perfect parallel. The tortured mental logic circles that Anakin continues to be trapped in to maintain his Vader persona due to his being responsible for Padme's death would likely not be possible with any other setup.

    I can also understand how Padme can die of a broken heart as it continues to feed into the theme of the story of failure of all that was once good and true. This is the part where I really wish they had thought more on the execution though. I think the problem is that it was announced by the medical droid and the way it declares that she's lost the will to live but it doesn't know why is really jarring to me. If you were to put a doctor in the place of the medical droid, would you believe what that doctor had to say? So I think if they still wanted to go with the expository dialogue, the dialogue could've been tweaked. Also, sequence-wise, we learn she's lost the will to live and then she gives birth. I think it would've been more believable to have her give birth before we realize she's lost the will to live. If it is to be believed that her death can be attributed to a buildup of factors-- the fall of the Republic which betrays her ideals, the fall of her husband which betrays her faith in him, and the physical stress caused by the Force choke-- I would be more inclined to believe the childbirth pushed her over the point of being able to go on. However, if they stayed with the sequence of knowing she's lost the will to live before Luke and Leia are born, perhaps showing that the act of giving birth really does drain her would've been better. But since the actual labor is presented rather clinically, I feel that was another missed opportunity.

    In summary, I apologize for the tl;dr but I can't really see any other way for Padme's death to go. It makes sense to me and the only issues I have are nitpicks with the execution of the death scene since I think it was too truncated and could've used some more tweaking. I think it was because they were editing for time with Revenge of the Sith since there were so many plot threads that had built up over the trilogy that needed to be tied up to be in line with Episode IV. I almost wish Revenge of the Sith had taken a page from Lord of the Ring: Return of the King's book what with their hour long ending. :p
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