What was the purpose of Darth Maul?

1)There is no Jar Jar, an annoying yet pivotal character it ATOC.
Jar Jar is only pivital because the fan backlash was so severe, Lucas had to give him something to do. I suspect that Ahmed was signed up already for the 3 movies, which is the only reason Jar Jar continues to exist.
Give Jar Jar's function over to Valorem.

2)A 12-14 ace fighter pilot whoe's never been in a ship before, that's the same lameness that was originally wriiten.
Who says he's never been in a space ship? Maybe not in a battle, but who's to say he hasn't been making freighter runs in-system?
Luke had never been in a spaceship, but from bush-piloting and such in similar atmospheric vehicles was able to transition to starfighters.

3) No central Antagonist or real threat to the main characters
Can still be the trade federation. Make the viceroy actually evil instead of a simpering coward.

4)No background into Obi-wans training or why he sees things the way he does.
He's a Jedi! His actions within the movie, and dialog explaining the jedi code to Anakin can solve that problem.

5) It makes the confrontation with Dooku in ATOC less meaningful
Unless, Dooku was one of OB1's teachers at the academy... oooooh.

6)The Jedi council already thought Anakin was to old to train at age 10. No way would they allow Obiwan to train him at 14.
But they did allow him to train a 9-year old. How do we know they wouldn't have caved about a 14-yo that strong? And OB1 did threaten to defy the council and teach him, whether he had permission or not.

7) your climatic final battle is between a Jedi and some hired thugs.

Not EVERY story has to be Jedi vs Sith. In fact, it would show much more dramatically how essential Jedi are to keeping the peace, and how badly their loss effects the galaxy.

[/i]8)untrained people and some mercenaries who will break and run at the first sign the battles not going their way. Would get crushed by the droid army. Just Like the Jedi did in ATOC. [/i]
They are NOT untrained. They may not have experience at field battles, but house-to-house and guerilla tactics would be their forte. The droids would be inept in this area.
Also, the Jedi getting mowed down in AotC was pathetic. It was done for story value and effect, but was totally inconsistant with the world Lucas had previously set up. These inconsistencies are what make me label AofC the Weakest of the series to date. At least TPM, while sucking heavily, was not boring.

Darth Maul was the central bad guy for the first movie. YEs Sidious was pulling the strings but with out Maul there was no real threat to the hero's
Not the way Lucas wrote the situation, no.

Maul was sent back to Naboo not only to take care of Padme. Palpatine would use her death to gain even more power from the senate through sympathy. But he was also sent back to tie up the loose ends. Those being Qui gonn and Obiwan. He releveled himself to those two Jedi so he really did need to kill them.
Yes, but if you strip him out, that problem is solved. Maul was sent to be killed.

Darth MAul was the essence of evil that Vader couldn't be in Return of the Jedi.
He was in the movie to establish the mood and mindset of the sith. Remember the last movie to come out before TPM portrayed Vader as actually having a soft spot for his son. MAul was the opposite of that he was there to show you what evil really is.
Even if I grant you that, Maul had no menace. He was a clown. Vader was far more menacing, largely because he did care. He cared so much it bent his mind. As far as I'm concerned that makes him even more evil.
Even Boba Fett in ESB and RotJ had more menace to him than Maul (and probablly more screen time).

So see the "Black clown" was not superflous. He could have been made to look different if he was to scary for you but that role had to be filled by some one.
I disagree. I do not believe you have successfully made your point.

I will change one comment though. For the duration of TPM, the ch

 

Oh, another late breaking interview!

Me: Greetings George Lucas-
Lucas: MONEY!! MONEY!!! I HAVE LOTS OF MONEY! LOOK AT MY CHAIR! It's made of MONEY! Don't you want some MONEY too?

-GAT

 

LOL

LUCAS: You know what I ate for lunch today? MONEY!!!! I had a Money Sandwich. It was money between two pieces of money, it was delicious.

 

So Koohii you are saying that every star wars film dose not have to be jedi vs sith.

But hang on everything to do with star wars is jedi vs sith. All the films the main plot is jedi vs sith, in the EU it is jedi vs sith and in most of the games it is jedi vs sith.

Don't you see it, the whole star wars theme is jedi vs sith, in the pt the sith are stronger and wipe out most of the jedi and they take control of the republic. In the ot the jedi wipe out all the sith and take back the republic.

So the way i see it your tmp is not star war's it is more like a star trek film.

 

he was supposed to kill obiwan but failed even though e was cooler

 

wow, how old are you guys again??

 

The climactic battle does not have to be Jedi vs Sith though. Sith can manipulate from the shadows...

 

Jar Jar is only pivital because the fan backlash was so severe, Lucas had to give him something to do. I suspect that Ahmed was signed up already for the 3 movies, which is the only reason Jar Jar continues to exist.
Give Jar Jar's function over to Valorem

Jar JAr was a marketing tool created to give the younger generation of fans something to latch on to. But since the second movie has already been made and Jar Jar's role was pivitol you cannot write him out of the first movie.
Valorem was done he was out of the senate. He had to be removed so Palpatine could step in and assume control.
I'm Sure Ahmed was signed for all three movies. His sence in the bar was probably due to a contractual arrangement which guaranted him a certain amount of screen time.

Who says he's never been in a space ship? Maybe not in a battle, but who's to say he hasn't been making freighter runs in-system?
Luke had never been in a spaceship, but from bush-piloting and such in similar atmospheric vehicles was able to transition to starfighters.

Hmm he was a slave. Not to many people let there slaves use their ships.
Bush Piolting and racing through beggars canyon which converted nicely to racing down the Deathstar's trench.
Besides flying a freighter through friendly airspace and Flying a fighter into a battle where your out numbered 4 or 5 to 1 is not exactly the same thing. If I had had a forum to debate A New Hope in when it was first released I would have remarked that Lukes ability to destroy the Death Star was pretty much a stretch as well.

Can still be the trade federation. Make the viceroy actually evil instead of a simpering coward.
Yuck. There were to many lame droid battles already. If the Viceroy had been a stronger character his being so easily manipulated by Sidious would not have been nearly as convincing. Becuase there was essentially no character development done for Sidious. If you came in to TPM not having ever heard of Star wars Sidious would appear as some old dude in a Bath robe that every one was intimidated by but no one would know why.
The Viceroy being a simpering coward fits iin better with the sith way of doing things. Take advantage of the weak use them to gain power.

He's a Jedi! His actions within the movie, and dialog explaining the jedi code to Anakin can solve that problem.

Yes his dialog could explain alot but then your changing the movie from being more action oriented to being more dialog driven. And I know we can agree that the dialog in TPM was shaky at best. His being under the instruction of Qui-gon in TPM made his later inability to keep Anakin from straying to the darkside. It also allowed for some explaination as to why Obi-wan is destined to become a great Jedi later.

Unless, Dooku was one of OB1's teachers at the academy... oooooh

But then you will need to further explain more about Obiwans past. It still wouldn't be nearly as effective as having him be Obiwans masters, master. It makes Dooku seem to be a more powerful jedi. I mean I had teachers in High school and Professors in college and instructors at the police academy that I truly admired and repected You see the bond between teacher and student is transient. I mean they are a part of your life for a year or two at the most. Its much different than a jedi master, and his padawan's relationship. They spend Many years together and almost all of that time they are actually physically together. A bond develops between them that is much much stronger thatn that of a teacher and student.

So no Dooku being one of Obiwans teachers at the academy would not work as well.

But they did allow him to train a 9-year old. How do we know they wouldn't have caved about a 14-yo that strong? And OB1 did threaten to defy the council and teach him, whether he had permission or not.

Yes they did allow him to train a 9 year old but there is a huge mental and physical difference between a 9 year old and a 14 year old. as for him being so strong that was one of the reasons they didn't

 

darth maul was not the central bad guy in TPM, that role belongs to the trade federation. (just as the seperatists are the bad guys in episode two)

also, without jarjar the gungan/naboo alliance would not have taken place - binx was the key to making that possible.

 

also, without jarjar the gungan/naboo alliance would not have taken place - binx was the key to making that possible

That's also why Boss Nass made him a General.

WRT Maul, I believe he was supposed to be the one to control the TF and Sidious' use the TF's army to be in Naboo as a base of operations.

 

what is this argument about? we need visable evidence of total. remorseless almost robotic evil in this movie in order to counterpoint anakins inherant goodness. that evil does exist in the universe and its possible, although in episode 1 we arnt sure how yet, to make choices that will lead you to a life of evil. thats the main reason. next, look at the story. Maul is a physical extention of Sideous` intentions. Sid is an old man, it makes total logical sense that he would have hired muscle. he takes what he needs to suit his purposes at that time, then he throws them away. Look at the pattern-

1. needs strength in episode one for the PHYSICAL TASK of retrieving the Queen and fighting the Jedi. After he achieves his goal, he sends Maul off. my guess is that he didnt care if he lived or died.

2. needs charm, cunning and guile in his Episode 2 apprentice in order to win over various systems etc. hence Dooku

3. my guess will be that Sid will betray Dooku in episode 3.

4. eventually he realises that Luke will be more of an asset to him than Vader, so he arranges a situation where he can effectvly change the old for the new. etc. etc.

spend 5 mins thinking about it. Maul is essential to Star Wars. plus hes cool. the Lucas as moneybags argument is just lame.

 

YodaScourge, I think you're trying to keep elements in TPM that I'm trying to strip out.
Rip out the Gungans. Just remove them entirely.
Forget the garbage about Anakin being a slave.
Instead of a wussy, cowardly TF Viceroy, imagine someone cunning, and nasty, like Palpatine, but on a slightly smaller scale. Give him a couple of nasty enforcers to boot.

Merc only fight for money. Millitia on Naboo as they were presented would have been wiped out in short order. Very true. But I don't think about the way the society was presented by Lucas. Imagine your conventional guard, or police for that matter, with SW technology. Using guerilla tactics and their local knowledge, with the mercs put to effective use by a real tactician, the droids wouldn't stand a chance. Not even the destroyers--defeating them is easy: hit them when they're rolling, before their shields are up. Or use heavy ordenance. Or explosives. With a proper leader, mercs will stay and risk death, especially for money, if they have confidence in their leader.

Maybe Dooku was OB1's instructor before he attained knighthood. Seeing that his master had turned to the darkside ought to be dramatic enough.

Shuttle piloting isn't the same as dog-fighting, but a lot of bored cropdusters pull dumb-ass stunts to amuse themselves. I don't see why a shuttle pilot couldn't be any different. Still not the same thing, but a lot of those crop dusters ended up making darn good pilot in WWII (OK, they did have formal training before that, but still...)

The clown thing comes from the facepaint and the flared nostrils, I think. And the lack of dialog.

Converting an action movie to dialog? Hardly. Remember that OB1 had to explain a lot to Luke in the original movie. Ben doesn't have to say everything. And what's wrong with exploring OB1's background more. Makes better sence to me than setting up a cool character just to die and leaving OB1 babysitting the fake queen and doing sod-all for most of the movie.

Yes, there is a huge difference between 9 and 14. Yes, the council would have objected. But, OB1 could still have done it anyway. Yes, he'd be risking renegade status, but presented with fait acompli, the council would probablly have accepted the situation with bad grace. Also, Anakin's fall would be an even bigger failure to OB1, because it would mean he'd risked everything and defied the council for nothing--worse, that he'd been wrong from the very beginning.

Back onto the subject of tactics, one of the big problems with all of the SW movies is that Lucas knows nothing about tactics. This is why characters repeatedly do stupid things, and strategy is largely glossed over. Gungan army mobilizing in the field? Hit them from orbit! Duh! Let's have all the Jedi jump into a pit, surrounded by flying aliens shooting at them, and droids firing from all sides. We can't shoot down the speeder, because we're out of missiles... ...and we're too dumb to use lasercannons.

Done right, TPM, and even AotC could have been good movies. Done by Lucas... Well, I'm not optimistic about part 3.

Just a thought...

 

Ok I can go along with what your saying if your basically wanting to rewrite both of the movies totally. Becuase thats what it would take for this to work.
I still think that you need a strong Sith Lord as an Enemy to set up Anakins fall to the darkside and to shed some light on exactly how evil a Sith Lord can be.

I really didn't like the way Dooku was protrayed at all. He seemed more like an over the hill anti-government activist than a Sith Lord. If your gonna make him such an important character then you'll have to recast him. You need some one with a more meanacing screen presence. Imean until he wiped the floor with Obi and Ani I really didn't seem him as much of a threat.

Tactics?
I didn't see any tactics at all.
You had the entire Jedi council minus Yida and the best plan they could come up with was Hey lets just rush in their and get surrounded. If El Camino had been 5 minutes farther away all of the Jedi would be dead.

The tactics through out the saga have been some what less than bad. take Empire for example Hoth had a planetary sheild to keep the Star destroyers from bombarding them. And it had the rebel x-wing fleet parked in the Hanger. The biggest threat the Echo base were the ATATs. Hmmmmm... maybe they should have scrambled X-wings instead of speeders. I'm pretty sure that an ATAT's armor is no match for a proton torpedo. And what as the deal with puttin their soldiers in trenches to fight against ATATs. If the speeders are'ntt gonna hurt did they really think that a simple blaster rifle would.
And now for the Gungans even if the trade federation had no orbital strike capabilities; what kind of idiot leader just lines his army up in rows and marches them straight toward their enemy. I mean come one these people have mastered interstellar travel and yet they use military tactics that we gave up before had even thought of the automoble. The Trade federation had to have out numbered the Gungans 50 to 1 with all of tose drop ships they landed on Naboo. I guess they have never heard of out flanking their enemy or just simple surrounding them.

oh yea I almost forgot the Clown thing. I think the Facial tattoos were a nice touch. They showed Mauls dedication to the sith ways. His lack of dialog was done for one reason and one reason only. Ray Park is no JAmes Earl Jones. There was no way for Lucas to have Maul sound nearly as intimidating as Vader. If he tried we would be calling Maul cheap Vader knock off.
I thought the fact that he didn't speak much added to the over all aura of evilness of Maul. He used his actions more to makes his points

Dude if Darth Maul looks like the clowns you had at your birthday parties as a kid then man you had one screwed up childhood.

As for EPIII Lucas has said its going to be really dark and also that its not going to anything like the movies that have come before it. Maybe there is still hope...maybe.

 

Yep, total rewrite needed.

Christopher Lee is an excellent actor, but again, the problem is Lucas. Lucas cannot direct people, and even Christorphe Lee needs direction with the feeble script presented. I think the lightsaberfight with Yoda was one of the worst ideas yet.

ESB had the best tactics, and the least input from Lucas. Yes, Xwings would have made short work of ATATs. But they didn't have Tow Cables. Besides, the X-wings were needed in cast TIE fighters went after the transports. For some reason, none of the ISDs launched fighters...
As for the TF... They set up a blocade with hundreds of capital ships, and then leave only one ship there. ??? OK, we open up the planed so that an army could land and take over from them? (Ok, an army wasn't landed, but it easily could have. Thus my argument for the Queen hiring mercs).

I don't think Lucas understands dark. He's too much of a suburbanite. Look at his idea of what slavery is like.

 

Your right about the slavery deal. How many slaves get a 2 bedroom apartment and enough free time to build a podracer.

Yes, Xwings would have made short work of ATATs. But they didn't have Tow Cables. Besides, the X-wings were needed in cast TIE fighters went after the transports.

Who needs tow cables when torpedos will do the trick. and As for the Tie fighters. I beleive the rebel base had a huge sorface to orbit Ion cannon. So just sit back and ionize the Star destroyers while the x-wings take care of the ATATs then use them for escorts. Remember they would have not lost their planetary sheild if they had stopped the ATATs.

I think the lightsaberfight with Yoda was one of the worst ideas yet.

I liked it at first but the more times i watch it the less and less I like it. For that matter the lightsaber fight between dooku and Anakin was pretty lame as well. Thats another reason I feel Christopher Lee is not right for the part he's to old to do the physical work required for a truely epic fight scene. Or maybe the Duel in TPM just set the bar to high.

As for the TF... They set up a blocade with hundreds of capital ships, and then leave only one ship there. ???

I guess they had all requested the same days off for vacation.

The blockade wasn't all that effective anyway. They had all those resources and couldn't stop a diplomatic ship from leaving. Its not like the Queens ship was a stealth bomber. Look at it. It just screams hey! I'm the Queen and I'm leaving. And then they turn around later and fly the same ship back on to the planet. But the trade federation doesn't seem to notice because if they did then they could have tracked it from space and had a general idea of where it was parked. I'm pretty sure Palpatine called ahead of them and said Hey moron's try and get it right this time she's coming back.

I think we've strayed from the original topic a bit but this conversation has gotten more interesting anyway.

I refuse to give up hope for a Dark EPIII. of course I'll probably be crushed be the mediocraty of it all anyway.

 

Jariten

I like the way you think.
I agree with most of your points.
The only one I have any trouble with is #3.

I don't think I would call Sids dumping Dooku for Anakin a betryal. so much as an upgrade. Palpatines influence over Anakin was alluded to greatly in ATOC. I think he's been scretly grooming Anakin to be his apprentice since the boy was first brought to Coruscant. Dooku is just there to fill in the gaps until Anakin is ready.

 

Lee isn't too old for the role, and is in great physical shape, as well as an excellent fencer. The problem is Lucas. So much effort was put into the CGI fight with Yoda, that the fight with real people was underdeveloped and uninspiring.

Interesting that only 1 TF ship fires at the Queen's ship. Maybe the rest were nothing by decoys, and when the landing was done, they disappeared?

 

I see that you have not replyed to this yet so i will post it again.

So Koohii you are saying that every star wars film dose not have to be jedi vs sith.

But hang on everything to do with star wars is jedi vs sith. All the films the main plot is jedi vs sith, in the EU it is jedi vs sith and in most of the games it is jedi vs sith.

Don't you see it, the whole star wars theme is jedi vs sith, in the pt the sith are stronger and wipe out most of the jedi and they take control of the republic. In the ot the jedi wipe out all the sith and take back the republic.

So the way i see it your tmp is not star war's it is more like a star trek film.

And why is maul a clown i mean in the first terminator film the main bad guy did not say much if anything in the film and that did not make him look or sound or be like a clown.

 

Maul's purpose is simplier than a lot of you think.

I do not know about mythology or other stuff, I know structure.

He sets it up, and Yoda explains it:

Always two there are, a Master and an apprentice.

So Maul is killed, so Palpatine needs a new apprentice. This poses a problem for his plans, since he is now short on time to train one, since his takeover plan is starting to take form.

So he gets Dooku to come to the Dark Side. I am spoiler free for Ep. III, so I am conjecturing here, that since Palp is already planning on Anakin to take over for Dooku, he is using Dooku until Anakin is ripe for the picking. So he replaces Dooku with Anakin, and Anakin takes the reins as apprentice. I have an idea how this happens but I will keep it to myself. Please do not respond with spoilers. I am jsut hypothesizing here, no need to tell me if I am right or wrong. That is not the issue. The issue is Maul - what is his pupose?

If Maul stayed alive, Palpy would not need Anakin. So Maul exists in TPM, besides a cool lightsaber duel, his real purpose is for Palpatine's need to for a new underling to do his bidding - and Anakin Skywalker turing to the dark side is the solution. And what this PT is all about. Anakin's fall.


Madine out

 

yuppers.

"and you, young Skywalker. We will be watching your career with great interest."

Coincidental Palpatine says this at the end of TPM? I think not.

 

darth maul...he's just a little horny!

 

DarthNeil
Actually, I did reply. Yes, the SW series is about Jedi vs Sith. However, it does not OVERTLY have to be JvsS. The sith were working in the shadows, have been for a long time. THey still can be the ones pulling the strings behind the TF, but they don't have to expose themselves.

THe comments on Darth Clown have been addressed previously.

As to Maul being necessary for structure... I think they could have skipped maul entirely and gone straight to Tyranous.

 

- its a shame, i would have enjoyed seeing anakin go up against maul in episode three.

- one of the strongest ideas that lucas used to illustrate slavery was the transmitters placed beneath the skin, to blow em up if they try escape.

- but the slavery and naboo's suffering was way too rushed, we didnt see enough to cheer the underdogs on

 

Yeah, the transmitters... which get one line of dialog, and are never mentioned again. Some demonstration was in order, or more description.

 

Another purpose for Darth Maul: To see two apprentices from opposite sides, take on each other.