What was TPM's biggest drawback?

No, it doesn't mean phantom plot. I found it fairly simple to follow the plot. It was clear and definite, and hardly phantom.

There were a large number of elements of this film that fans have been able to discuss and debate. Not issues of the film's production, but of it's story. People have found plenty of this movie's story to enjoy. Lucas certainly made me happy with this film.

There is no film that EVERYONE likes. I hated Titanic. I hated AI. To some people, those are their favorite films. But I don't go to their boards and insult their movie. Nor do I go to the OT threads and attack ESB, even though I fall asleep when watching it. I respect that they enjoy it and I feel no need to go and point out to them every part that I disliked. It would be pointless. I can't change their mind, they can't change mine.

Just like no one is going to change your mind about TPM. This debate never gets us anywhere.

 

Let's see, a the Sith Lord manages to begin to seriously splinter the republic

He did? I must have missed that part. As far as we know, he just wants to rule, he didnt really hurt the republic as we saw...

 

Um, that would be the point. It is dramatic irony because we, the audience, knows what will ultimately occur. We know that Palpatine is planning to become a dictator because we have seen it happen already. We also known Palpy is also Sidious and we see him manipulating the Trade Fed and the Senate. The point is that the characters don't see it coming, that Palpy doesn't do anything overtly bad because we ALREADY KNOW he is doing bad things.

When Vader first appeared, you knew he was bad long before he strangled the rebel. With Palpy, we can just tell he is up to no good. Even my niece who is 5 picked up on that.

Some people bash GL for being blatantly obvious, others say he doesn't reveal enough.

 

>>>>Um, that would be the point. It is dramatic irony because we, the audience, knows what will ultimately occur. We know that Palpatine is planning to become a dictator because we have seen it happen already. We also known Palpy is also Sidious and we see him manipulating the Trade Fed and the Senate. The point is that the characters don't see it coming, that Palpy doesn't do anything overtly bad because we ALREADY KNOW he is doing bad things.<<<

Well this is a great example of not pleasing everybody. Some of TPM's detractors want Ep.1 to start from scratch so that the fictional first time viewer can start with TPM. Then we got the camp who feel that Palpy should have been revealed as Sidius right away instead of keeping those not in the know in the dark.

 

I am not going to try to change your mind Patrick_Russell. You have bashed TPM longer than I have even been a member of the JC boards.

And I'm sorry... Obi Wan may as well have been an extra until the last 15 minutes of the movie. When the comic relief has a part that's significantly larger than one of the main characters of the trilogy, there's a problem of balance.

However, I do have a problem with your assumption that Obi-Wan is a main character in the prequel trilogy and therefore was underused in TPM. No one ever said that Obi-Wan was or would be a major character in all of the prequels. This is not a problem of balance but instead a problem of YOUR expectations. Someone who has never seen Star Wars and knows little to nothing of the story would not think twice about how little Obi-Wan plays into TPM. Only someone with too many preconceptions from the OT that cannot suspend them and watch TPM with an open mind would think that.

Marty McFly's girlfriend does not figure into Back to the Future hardly at all, but she is critical to the second and third films. No one thought twice about it because they saw the three BTTF films in order. We don't have that luxury as Star Wars fans, so we have to unlearn what we learned from the OT to a certain extent.

 

Nothing..I loved it.

 

<<With TPM what we ultimately get is an obviously collaged effort, the basis for the movie's demonstrated lack of cohesion that is at the heart of many peoples criticism. With the use of digitally-based new filmmaking technologies (as any creative tech) there is the tendency to become engrossed in the tools and capabilities offered, and to lose sight of the functions they are supposed to perform. Anyone who has witnessed the behind the scenes documentaries on TPM can attest to this, with GL micromanaging each scene. Without some perspective, these filmmaking techniques become self serving. Perhaps if the film had been given more time to gestate, and GL could have put some space between himself and his processes, things might have turned out differently. I think he must be aware of this, looking back, and based on the volumes of criticism launched at TPM by obviously caring fans. I anticipate that having acclimated to these new creative possibilities, GL's AOTC will seem less dominated by them and will be utilized more in the service of story, character and mood. There I said it...

Is there A New Hope? Anyone? >>

Tobie Wan, I think you are right. Take Jonathon Hales signing on as screenwriter, for example.


<<No one ever said that Obi-Wan was or would be a major character in all of the prequels.>>

Ahhhh, but that is where you are wrong, Strilo. Quoth Lucas in the annotated screenplays, "The reason I showed Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan together at the end of ROTJ is because the next three films are going to be about them." He sure followed through on that, didn't he? Of course, that was probably before he started saying, "Star Wars was always intended to be the story of Darth Vader." Riiiiiight. A New Hope is clearly a movie about Darth Vader. I don't see how we could have missed that :rolls eyes:.

 

"Oh Hawk it's not like I get an extra vote or anything."

No, but you added bulk and argument to the point you chose and then just threw in a few others in the bag making your initial point stand out bc it is the only one which is elaborated. In other words, you had such little faith in your own belief, that you needed psycholgical trickery to get more votes on the answer.

 

I guess I don't understand why WE are so important that WE can dictate to George, the guy who created all this, HOW things should be done, what characters should be main characters and what exactly HE meant by this quote or that quote. It's his creation. He is going to do with it what he wants. If he decides to make Obi-Wan a wallflower for Episode I then so be it.

The arrogence of so called "fans" to tell George what he should and shouldn't do and how he did this and that wrong just floors me. It reminds me a lot of the point Kevin Smith was making about the internet and movies in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Alas it seems to have been lost on many people.



Oh and Hawk lighten up I think you are being a little harsh here.

 

Hey guys I'm using psychological trickery! Now if you can all send $5 care of Happy Dude...

 

I had a problem with the annoying kiddie factor. But I think TPM will be a better film when you contrast it with AOTC...

 

I should've chse other. Boss Nass's slobbering thing bugged me the most. But I chose Jake's acting as delivery of some lines bugged me though.
But there are things that bug me in every single movie I realyl like so. . .

 

"Um, that would be the point. It is dramatic irony because we, the audience, knows what will ultimately occur"

But one compleatly ovious thing that you seem to be missing is that IT DID NOT HAPPEN IN TPM!!!!! Maybe if it was hinted at or somehow shown, then it would be in the movie. But as is, there was nothing in the movie to show that the Republic is fracturing yet. They all seemed prety united in Paly to me...and if a fan gets that impression, then what about the guy who only saw TPM and none of the OT?

That along goes with my point that very little happened.

And, i have to agree with the guy who said that the pod race showd Ani's piloting skills. If a very flashy way, but it did.

 

There are no "drawbacks" in TPM. It's Star Wars, just like everything else.

 

"No one ever said that Obi-Wan was or would be a major character in all of the prequels."

Are you joking? Lucas said that for YEARS before TPM came out. Lucas even WROTE TPM that way until he got about halfway through the screenwriting process and turned Obi Wan's character into Qui Gon. I obviously have no problem with you playing cheerleader for Lucas the way you seem to like to (to each their own), but at least try to be accurate when you come after us "bashers", eh?

 

>>>>Are you joking? Lucas said that for YEARS before TPM came out.

ALL of the prequels?

 

That is really nitpicky SRN. It was not like Lucas said "Well, ahh, OB1 will be a ahh, major...acter, umm, in only the second, um, movie. But in the ahh, first, he will only get, you know, a small ahh -er roll."

 

Yes Random... he said repeatedly that the prequels would focus on Anakin and Obi Wan and their history together.

And on top of that, Obi Wan WAS the main Jedi character in TPM until about halfway through the screenwriting process when Lucas almost literally took the majority of Obi Wan's part and gave it to a newly-invented character named Qui Gon Jinn. Up until that point, Obi Wan WAS featured in TPM and was always intended to be. This isn't exactly late-breaking, "Stop the presses!" sorta news here...

 

But once the movies come out, it's not going to matter. Why does it matter now? We'll still see the characters, we'll still have an idea about what happens to them.

 

The only thing wrong with TPM is the fans who expected it to be like "The Matrix" or (worse!) a remake of ANH.

Nothing wrong with TPM. If there was, I wouldn't have seen it 16 times in the theater!

 

Obi Wan WAS the main Jedi character in TPM until about halfway through the screenwriting process when Lucas almost literally took the majority of Obi Wan's part and gave it to a newly-invented character named Qui Gon Jinn.

That is his prerogative. It is his movie saga to do with as he pleases. He does not have to answer to you!!! What is so hard to understand about this???

Dude go watch Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and pay CLOSE ATTENTION to what Kevin Smith has to say about people on the internet criticizing movies. You obviously need the lesson.

 

In other words, Strilo, your Official Decree is that no one shall speak ill in any way of a Star Wars movie in a Star Wars forum? It's either "Get gushy or get out!"?

Well, well, well...

 

I am not saying don't have issue with things in TPM. I am saying how can you have an issue with something George Lucas was GOING to do, perhaps, but then changed his mind?

He was GOING to put a lot of things into the film that he didn't.

My point is... George Lucas changed to the Qui-Gon / Obi-Wan relationship we saw in the film for a REASON. He has the whole prequel trilogy story arc in his head. He knows what he wants and he knows what will work best for the story of the prequel trilogy that HE wants to tell.

You, last time I checked, do NOT have the whole story arc of the prequel trilogy in your head, so this is why I do not understand why you question this decision to make Obi-Wan an apprentice.

To me it is VERY obvious. The Master / Apprentice relationship is very important to the prequel trilogy. Therefore, Lucas evidently felt it was critical to SHOW this Master / Apprentice relationship as it was meant to function BEFORE we see Obi-Wan as Anakin's master. So he made Obi-Wan an apprentice, which is fine with me, and introduced Qui-Gon.

 

Well, I do believe you insisted that Lucas had never said anything about Obi Wan being a main character throughout the PT... I merely provided evidence to suggest that your assumption was wrong and that he not only DID say that Obi Wan was supposed to be a main character throughout the PT, but also that he even wrote initial drafts of TPM with Obi Wan as the main character.

If you want to try and turn this around into an excuse to level attacks at me for being a "basher", fine. I just think the original point I was addressing bears a little attention as well.

 

OK so quotes from George Lucas saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan would be the focus of the prequel trilogy did correct my statement that he never said that. I stand corrected.

But that still does not change my point that he is free to change his mind at will.