What were they thinking?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Jan 2, 2006.

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  1. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
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    So, Grievous is now dead, and the Jedi Masters decide to just march over to the Chancellors office and just demand he hand back over his Emergency powers then and there. no procedure?. ?. and they think this is a good idea?. it would make more sense to Legitimatize this information by making the Announcement in the Senate. you know legitimizing it. talk about jumping the Gun. i can't imagine that it works like this in a Democracy . especially one they claim to value. if they announce it in the Senate then Palpatine would have to do what he said he would. give up his power .or lose face. but they think it is best to just corner the guy in his office after hours and make demands?.luckily Anakin caught them before they left and made this mistake and gave them a new Focus. and since he does give them this new Focus( Palps identity), it almost excuses this terrible strategy. almost. it is more the Point that the Jedi just made bad strategic decisions all the way with Palpatine. they are so bent on him that they can't even think clearly. who actually confronts a Leader like this at night, with no witness' . it could easily reek of treason, or insurgency. and it did. they were clouded alright.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Too many in the Senate are under Palpatine's influence. It's up to the Jedi to approach Palpatine. He even claimed that he would hand it over once Grievous was dead or captured. Best to do it quietly and with a minimum of fuss. Besides, who says that the Jedi are in the wrong? Maybe they do have the authority to do this. Or perhaps they're just going to inform him that Grievous is dead and will wait for him to arrange a special session of the Senate so that he can hand over Emergency Powers publically.
  3. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I think a public announcement would be the only way to do it. they played into his hands again. they were too impatient. regardless of having Senators in his back pocket, announcing it in the Senate would put it out in the open , and Palpatine cannot dodge it. i doubt the Jedi have the Authority to demand he do it then and there in his office. that's not how a Democracy works. and there is no proof that things still would not have gone the same way. with the Whole Posse dead, and the Jedi branded Traitors. at least in the Senate the Jedi cannot be implicated in anything. other than doing their duty. capturing or destroying Grievous. it's another example of Bad Jedi Strategy re Palpatine. it's just a bad strategy.
  4. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Yes, yes... to Duggy, you listen.
    Welcome back, by the way, Duggward.

    All the Jedi had to do was inform the Senate of the facts
    that Grievous was dead, the war was over, and Palpatine
    said he'd go when the war was over.
    Air it all on the senate floor... they needed to separate
    Palpatine the sith from Palpatine the chancellor.

    And if the Senate decided to keep him after all of that...
    well f'em, self-determination, baby.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Or maybe it was too late and they would still rally to Palpatine's defense. All he has to do is make the speech about needing a secure and safe society for everyone. He is the master of deception. All he has to do is spin it that the Jedi are trying to take over the Republic for their own purposes.
  6. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    they are so bent on him that they can't even think clearly. who actually confronts a Leader like this at night, with no witness' . it could easily reek of treason, or insurgency. and it did. they were clouded alright.


    Yep, it really is treason. Even if a large number of senators were under Palps influence, their vote still counts. Its up to the Jedi to convince them otherwise. If they cant, they cant. They must go along with it in a democracy, not attempt to kill its leader in the dead of night. They are keepers of the peace, not judge jury and executioners.
  7. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    The Jedi should've publically announced Grievous' death before doing anything else. That would've made everyone look at Palpatine. The people would've expected him to give up his powers, as he said he would do time and again. If he didn't, he'd be the bad guy and the Jedi and the Senate would be the good guys.
  8. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    well we know that speech works. safe and secure from the Jedi ;) . and as far as the Senate wanting to keep him ?. i don't think that it would work like that. without the Seps there is no threat. and no need for emergency power. the Emergency is over. and the Jedi can't be accused of trying to take over . cause they let the Senate handle it. and stayed out of politics. as they should, and prefer. Palps needed to implicate the Jedi to prove that the Republic was still in Danger. and the Jedi made that possible.
  9. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Tsk, tsk, DUGGY. As an expert on Republic law you should know that the Senate voted more governing powers to Palpatine which legally severed the ties between the Jedi and the Senate. The Jedi are no longer able to report to the Senate, they must report to the Office of the Chancellor directly.

    Since the Jedi have neither a voice in the Senate nor any trustworthy liaisons their hands are tied. Not even the Loyalist Committee or the Delegation of 2000 want the Jedi involved in their movement. Plus the Jedi are suspicious that the Senate is under the influence of the Sith.

    Palpatine made quite certain the Jedi had no other channels within which to operate. They had to report to him directly. He established law that demanded that they do so, keeping the Senate in the dark.
  10. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    Good day, sir!

    I forgot that the Senate had signed away authority over the Council to Palpatine. Not that it particularly changes anything. It's not as if Palpatine would've had Mace and Yoda arrested had they dared address the Senate.
  11. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    star 5
    Or maybe it was too late and they would still rally to Palpatine's defense. All he has to do is make the speech about needing a secure and safe society for everyone. He is the master of deception. All he has to do is spin it that the Jedi are trying to take over the Republic for their own purposes.

    That could be true, they may have still rallied to Palps defense. But it is up to the Jedi to convince them otherwise politically. If they couldnt, the Jedi would just have to live with it until they could.
  12. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Hmmm [face_thinking] I'm sure the resourceful Jedi could find a way to make it public that Grievous was dead. I'm sure that Palpatine could not pretend that the War was still going on for long. don't forget Palpatine is not the only one with friends in the Senate.

    Your move.
  13. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    Tsk, tsk, DUGGY. As an expert on Republic law you should know that the Senate voted more governing powers to Palpatine which legally severed the ties between the Jedi and the Senate. The Jedi are no longer able to report to the Senate, they must report to the Office of the Chancellor directly.


    OK, fine, that makes it even worse. Palps is their boss. Attempting to kill your boss is definate grounds for dismissal. :D

    Another thing. I wonder if Yoda ever found out that Mace decided to go after Palps despite Yodas warning ? I know Yoda should put 2 + 2 together, but in the PT he hasnt done that well.
  14. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    You're both also forgetting that Mace was on his way to report that Grievous was dead and to request Palpatine release his authority... but then was alerted to the fact that he was Sith Lord and traitor to the Republic. So, the mission was changed from a simple meeting to an arrest party.
  15. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    The possibility exists that it was going to be more than a 'simple meeting'. Even before Mace was informed of Palpatine's true identity, Agen Kolor, Kit Fisto, and Saesee Tiin were already going with him. The subject of arresting the Chancellor should he not abdicate had been brought up in a previous Council meeting. Mace and The Gang planned to arrest Palpatine, Sith Lord or not.
  16. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    So, the mission was changed from a simple meeting to an arrest party.

    Since the Senate ceded the Jedi to Palps, attempting to arrest your boss would also be grounds for dismissal. :D Yoda warned them, "to a dark place this will take us".
  17. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    That's true, that was their intention should he not return power to the Senate. But once it was made known he was the Sith Lord he was automatically designated a traitor and a clear and present danger and the Jedi are not bound to take orders from him any longer - they can charge and arrest him for high crimes and treason.
  18. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    Automatically designated a traitor to the Jedi. Unless they could prove that he was indeed the one whom had orchestrated the war, that Palpatine and the secret leader of the Confederacy were one in the same, and that he had broken any laws by being a Sith Lord, they had no grounds to arrest him on. He would've been released within the hour had Mace managed to take him into custody alive. I guess this is what happens when you watch too much Law & Order.
  19. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I did'nt forget. it's in my initial post.
  20. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    So then you're stating that the Jedi can neither act within the confines of the law nor take the law into their own hands.

    The law states they must report to the Supreme Chancellor. It also states they must protect the Republic against the threat of the Seperatists - who Sidious leads. Sidious is the Chancellor. So what is their priority? Obey the Chancellor or destroy the Sith? I think you know.

    You're just delighted in the fact that the Jedi experience a catch 22 and then you posit some theory that the Jedi had other options when clearly Lucas wrote them into a corner on purpose.

    They had the mandate to destroy the sith since the Battle of Naboo. Sidious being the Chancellor does not suddenly alter their mandate.

    Lucas was smart not to leave the Jedi any other option - they had to confront Palpatine and they could have destroyed him had Anakin made the right choice.

  21. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    I'm not saying that the Jedi shouldn't have confronted Sidious. That they shouldn't have tried to kill him. That the Jed should've held a press conference instead and answered questions from HoloNet reports. I'm simply looking at it through the eyes of a sleazy defense attorney. The Jedi could not arrest, hold, and execute the galaxy's beloved Palpatine on their own by simply saying 'trust us, he's a bad guy'. They had no evidence whatsoever to back up the assertion that Palpatine was the leader of the Confederacy. Dooku was dead. Grievous was dead. Nute Gunray and the Separatist Council didn't even know. In fact, I'm not even sure Grievous did. Even if Mace and the others had managed to take him alive, the Senate wouldn't have allowed them to do anything to him. They would've forced the Council to turn custody of Palpatine over to them (you know what that means). All this and more is why Mace knew that Sidious had to die right then and there.

    "Case # 75/16-24D. The People vs. Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Mr. Palpatine, you are charged with one count of being an evil douche. How do you plead?"
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But they do know who Darth Sidious is and what he looks like. Plus, the fact that Sidious was bold enough to reveal himself to Anakin is plenty enough evidence for the Jedi to arrest, hold, and execute PalpSidious and it's not right to say that the Jedi shouldn't have tried to kill Sidious because if they didn't, he'll be free to initiate Order 66 which will kill every Jedi across the universe and then we'll end up with what we saw in the Original trilogy.

    Like Mace said, PalpSidious is too dangerous to be left alive.
  23. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    Palpatine/Sidious wouldn't have been able to unleash Order 66 had the Jedi not moved against him. Granted, the clones would've killed the sons a bitches anyway. But, the only reason the Senate and the galaxy at large was OK with the extermination of the Jedi was because they had tried to overthrow and murder their beloved Chancellor. Palpatine (not Sidious) needed a justification for everything that he did. He had to wait for the Jedi to give him one. Once more, I'm not saying that the Jedi shouldn't have moved against Sidious, as is demonstrated by the first three sentences in my post.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Palpatine has already started his Order 66 plan before he even told the Senate about the Jedi's so-called "assassination attempt" on him which tells us that he was going to kill off the Jedi even without the Senate's approval nor if the Jedi hadn't moved against him.
  25. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    He knew the Jedi were going to move against him. He ensured that they would by revealing his true identity to Anakin.

    He tells Anakin he's a Sith.

    Anakin tells the Jedi he's a Sith.

    The Jedi move to kill him.

    He whoops all their asses three seconds flat.

    He orders their execution.

    The clones carry out their orders to the T.
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