What were they thinking?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Jan 2, 2006.

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  1. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    You both assume that if the Jedi stepped back and bided their time that somehow Palpatine would have destroyed himself or another solution would present itself.

    no, i don't actually. i just think they had 10 years to think of what to do and then they rush it in minutes. it seems odd to me in all their supposed wisdom.

    Even if the Senate were informed, they have no more power. Sidious can declare martial law at any time for any reason - he doesn't need Senate approval... not even to declare himself Emperor.

    well, declaring himself emperor pretty much comes from his demonstration of the treason. he couldn't have done that without the 'help' of the jedi.

    Pay attention to the cut scenes - Mon Mothma explains that the Senate no longer functions as a governing body. The only way to stop Palpatine is to start a rebellion and overthrow him. But the Loyalists agreed to hide their intentions from the Jedi.

    cut scenes are cut scenes.

    There is no legal recourse to remove Palpatine since he manufactured the law to be on his side under every circumstance. He has all the power and control. This is what Mace is trying to explain to Anakin.

    so, you say they had 10 years of figuring something out and then it hits them that oops, there's a snowball's chance in hell they can do it legally (protect their order and all) so they quickly, without even considering other options, just jump at the illegality?
    and somehow i must have missed the scene that has mace *explain* something to anakin. :p i only ever saw him build on anakin's political conscience. which seems to have retreated somewhat while padme took the top priority.

    The only way to stop Palpatine is a new war - except Palpatine would declare martial law and the Republic's own army would squash any rebellion.

    and somehow the rebellion still forms.

    Or the Senate could attempt to arrest Palpatine - except the courts are in his pocket and again, the clones answer to him directly.

    Or the Jedi could attempt to arrest Palpatine - except the courts are in his pocket and again, the clones answer to him directly and he would execute Order 66.


    it's interesting you support the illegality of the actions so much. you could at least give us that it's a rushed decision. or not even a decision, but rather a rushed, er, rush.

    You guys aren't giving Lucas the credit he deserves for the predicament the Republic put the Jedi in - yes, it is the Republic's own fault (check the commentary). Lucas covered every angle in the story - the only solution was to kill Palpatine - that's why it comes down to a single moment and a single choice for Anakin...

    ... who blew it.


    you get that wrong. i absolutely love how he's set this up.
    and it doesn't come down to purely anakin screwing that one up (although he did screw that one up) the jedi also screw it up. no more, no less.
  2. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    And as he states himself, "I am the Senate." Maybe if it was not just announced to the Senate, but throughout the Republic, that idea might've worked. But the Senate itself is so wrapped around Palpy's little finger that they'd probably use the news to vote him Chancellor for Life anyway, like the Roman senate did with Julius Cesar.

    And the WT*? aspect of the Jedi's actions is, to me, part of the whole problem of showing the Jedi as not-very-perceptive blockheads throughout the PT. Everytime Mace says "I sense a plot...", I just want to add "well, dur-hay, Sherlock!"
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Because the Jedi are facing a different Sith Lord from what's on record. One who is using subterfuge and patience as tools of the trade. They haven't adapted to face this new breed of Sith. They're not making the connections between everything. It's only when Palpatine starts moving all the pieces into place, that Mace can sense what's happening, but has no clue as to how strongly it runs.
  4. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Oh, I know; it's more the lack of buildup to the moment that bugs me. The disconnect between what the audience sees happening, and what the Jedi don't see right under their respective noses results in the audience(or maybe it's just me) wondering how the "guardians of peace and justice in the old republic" became walking examples of the Peter Principle. They have to not catch on totally - the republic has to fall - but it's could've been done in such a way that doesn't make the Jedi look quite so clueless.
  5. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    And what exactly is it that they expected instead? They knew that "only two there are - a master and an apprentice". Did they expect one single Sith Lord to walk into the Jedi temple and challenge all of them at once with his lightsaber ignited, one single man against - how many? dozens, maybe even hundreds of them?
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Kinda. They expected the Sith to come out with a fleet of starships and just start attacking systems at random. Just like they used to do. The Sith were 2-Dimensonal. Now they're fully fleshed out and doing things that the Jedi wouldn't expect of them. The Sith are using elements of the Jedi teachings to their own advantage. Namely patience. Something that the many Sith who once ruled lacked. That's why they fell apart so easily. Now that they're insanely patient, they can plot and plan all they want. They can take everything into account. And by avoiding the limelight, it makes it difficult for the Jedi to find them.

    This is why Lucas refers to Sidious as the Phantom Menace. The unseen enemy.
  7. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Bang on. And I find it interesting that the OS has come out and kinda changed out perception of the sith. Sids used patience, no doubt about it. And that's why he was able to take out the Jedi. He coupled patience with power which was something that no sith had done before him. It was all flying off the handle in a lust for power, or so I always thought anyway.
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i always hear the sith, the sith, like they are a legion. so they belived they only come in pairs and in legions? makes no sense to me.

    and obviously the sith can't be one-dimensional if they can so cleverly adapt to the circumstances like sid does. another point towards hubris with the jedi. assuming the sith wouldn't have changed their approach. ts ts ts.
  9. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, Sinister, while this is what Sith Lords of ancient used to be and act like, I still don't get how the Jedi could expect the new Sith to act like this. The Jedi must have known that the Sith couldn't come with a starfleet or act at random, since they were aware that there are only two of them now. Two people can't run a star fleet and they can't waste their resources by acting at random. Yoda even stated that "lies, deceit, creating mistrust" were the ways of the Sith now.

    I'm sorry, but it is beyond me how they could be aware for over ten years of the presence of a Sith Lord, or two Sith Lords, without figuring out that a two people enemy simply cannot act like the ancient Sith order, or giving a thought what the mode of action of the new Sith might be.
  10. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4

    They were a legion, but do to the fact that they kept wiping each other out, Darth Bane started the rule of two. They were one dimensional for a time, but we see starting in TPM that they had adapted and were able to nearly destroy the Jedi.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Sith used to be in large numbers, often paired together as a Master and an Apprentice. But they began fighting each other, because they all wanted to be the absolute ruler. They began to kill each other off, because of this. They'd all team together. The Sith Empire was destroyed by both the Jedi, the Republic of that era and the greedy infighting of the Sith. Darth Bane had survived because he saw what was happening to the Sith. So he went into hiding. He would only take one Apprentice and mold him in his own graven image. They would never ally themselves with others. It would be just the two of them. And they would wait for the Jedi and the unified Republic to crumble. One thousand years passed and Darth Sidious saw that the time was at hand. Killing Darth Plaugeis and completing Darth Maul's training, Sidious began to make the connections necessary to sieze control of the Republic and eliminate the Jedi.

    The aincent Sith did use lies, deceit and created mistrust. But they never did so in the way that they did now. They did so in the past, to try and turn Jedi to the Dark Side, so that they could build their own numbers. They never figured that Sidious became a Senator and then the Supreme Chancellor. They couldn't sense him. They never figured that Dooku was telling the truth. They just saw it as a lie and a way to create mistrust against the Senate. The Jedi figured out when the Clone Wars began, that Dooku had put together an army to use against the Republic. But what they didn't know was that Sidious was controling both sides. They thought that the Dark Lord of the Sith were just on the opposing side. They never guessed that he was there the whole time, manipulating everything.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yes, i know this story. but it actually points to what i was saying (or maybe i'm making this up :p ) they adapted a helluva lot, don't you think? and the jedi even knew they come in pairs. so you tell me they expected two guys (one of which they knew was dead) so basically one guy to walk into the temple and declare the rule of sithdom? they aren't the brightest chaps in the galaxy, but this is a bit of a stretch isn't it?
    so they must have expected something sneaky, right? but they still rested on their laurels for ten or so years because apparently they couldn't *think* crooked enough? nah. is this your theory? they simply were so wholesome and nice they couldn't come up with anything better than the plan we see on screen?
    this is too much fun. :D
    they used lies and deceit *differently*? before they were lying through their teeth and then lying through.. uhm, what? how else can you use lies and deceit, sinister?
    they aren't that stupid, are they? they were just arrogant. they assumed nothing could stop them yaddayaddayadda hence no precautions, no nothing.
  13. Ruthio Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 2
    ah who cares about the basics vader tosses sidous down a shaft ending the sith tyranny lol what the hell was sidious thinking lol
  14. the_imperial_senate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 1999
    star 1
    In my opinion, the Jedi are evil! - Anakin

    Then you are LOST! - Obi Wan

    Mace Windu did discuss with Obi and Yoda about the possibility of the Jedi taking over the Republic so there can be a "smooth" transition from Palpatine to a new Chancellor if he refuses to give up Emergency Powers. I think Mace and co. were ready to arrest Palpatine if he resisted. When Anakin revealed he was a Sith lord, Mace skipped the discussion and went straight to arrest and attack mode.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Doc Brown: "You're not thinking forth dimensionally."

    That's what was happening to the Jedi. The Sith were thought to be dead and then show up. They don't know if there are two or not. They are just going by past knowledge. But the Sith lay low. Meantime, they pull the strings to keep the Jedi busy for the next ten years. In a cut scene for AOTC, Mace and Yoda lamment that after ten years, they still haven't found the other Sith. Then events start moving forward and the Sith make themselves known as the leader of the opposition. But they never guess that the Dark Lord of the Sith is controling both sides of the war for his own advantage. Just as Dooku said, Sidious gained control and by the time they figure it out, it'll be too damn late. Which was exactly what happened. Yoda realizes that the Sith adapted and the Jedi didn't, during his fight with Palpatine. They did things different.

    Dooku told Obi-wan the truth, but the Jedi thought that he was lying all along. Obi-wan thinks that it's impossible for Sidious to control the Republic without the Council being away of it. He then repeats this to Mace, saying it doesn't feel right. Yoda chalks it up to lies, deciet and creating mistrust with the Senate. Three years later, they find out that they were wrong. Obi-wan even admits that everyone was decieved by a lie. That's a different form of lying in my book.
  16. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Obi-wan even admits that everyone was decieved by a lie. That's a different form of lying in my book.

    That line always stumps me...
    seems to me that the Jedi
    were actually deceived by the truth.
    I know it's just quick and tidy
    line to persuade Juliet about Romeo,
    but it never really sat true with me.
  17. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    Dooku said that to Obi-Wan, knowing that Obi wouldn't believe him.
    And besides, he wasn't telling that to Obi-Wan so that they actually would fight against Sidious, but rather, the two would further bolster the Emperor's hold on the Jedi.

  18. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Obi-wan even admits that everyone was decieved by a lie. That's a different form of lying in my book.

    That line always stumps me...
    seems to me that the Jedi
    were actually deceived by the truth.


    Yeah, that line doesnt sit well with me either. They were deceived by their own self delusions.
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5

    not sure who this doc brown guy is...

    what did they do to find the other sith? their methods for finding the guy seem pretty ineffective, don't you think?

    so what you say is the jedi knowing or suspecting the sith would operate by lies and deceit and only come in pairs just ... uhm, i mean, seriously, this is how it happened, right? so, despite the jedi knowing and suspecting it, they just couldn't figure out anything better than this? and you say they didn't adapt to which i agree. so, that's what you got?
    the jedi knew and suspected and that was it? and what did the sith do differently other than the stuff they had already suspected they would do anyway? it boggles the mind.
    well, no. lies deceive. that's the definition of lies. so either you believe them or you don't. and i find the other's comments here interesting: because the truth was right in front of their eyes. obi-wan was even told the truth and yet he doesn't even try to check it in any way. instead they run around and do sid's bidding.
    of course obi-wan doesn't think sid could do all the things that sid did. that's called underestimating your enemiy in my book. and it's arrogance to a tee.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The lie is that Palpatine was a good man. Even when Obi-wan said that he has trouble trusting him, he never realized why it was that way. That he was a Sith Lord and manipulating everyone into doing his bidding. The Clone Wars, the Separatist movement, the invasion of Naboo, the kidnapping of Palpatine, etc. They were all part of one collective lie.


    Must not have seen Back To The Future.

    Kinda hard to find someone in a galaxy that big. More than likely they started at Russann (sp) and went from there.

    They used the political system to their advantage. Before they would just come in and conquer everything by force. Now it was politics. They played the game and the Jedi never thought that they could do so, because they were never that original before. Much less that they would be discovered before they could do that.

    Yes, that's why the Jedi fell. They were so arrogant enough to think that they could defeat the Sith, that they never entertained the notion of the Sith doing things differently. Mace did say that they would keep an eye on the Senate, but Palpatine made sure that the Jedi were kept too busy to do even that much. It wasn't until the mission at Cato Niemoidia that the Jedi finally discovered that Sidious was real and on Courscant. But before they could get to him, Palpatine initiated the invasion of Courscant.
  21. JASTERSLEGACEYV2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2005
    star 1
    as is suggested, this is all part of his master plan, he wanted the jedi 2 do that, he manipulated them 2 do it and make every1 think that they r evil (in my opinoin they r) not 2 mention, they thought that he would do somthing like order 66 right off the bat when grevous was dead, so basicly they jumped the gun ( wich is wat he wnated them 2)
  22. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    The lie is that Palpatine was a good man. Even when Obi-wan said that he has trouble trusting him, he never realized why it was that way. That he was a Sith Lord and manipulating everyone into doing his bidding. The Clone Wars, the Separatist movement, the invasion of Naboo, the kidnapping of Palpatine, etc. They were all part of one collective lie.

    But Dooku even told Obi Wan about Sidious in AOTC...
    the Jedi were blinded by the truth because they
    chose not to believe him.
  23. DarthFisto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2002
    star 4
    They just straight-up should have brought more Jedi. Assuming that Mace Windu trusts Anakin's judgement on Palpatine's being a Sith, then why the hell didn't they bring more than three?
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Because the lie was so convincing that they couldn't entertain the notion that for once, a Sith Lord speaks true.

    Three more dead Jedi.

    Sidious: "Excellent."

  25. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    They just straight-up should have brought more Jedi. Assuming that Mace Windu trusts Anakin's judgement on Palpatine's being a Sith, then why the hell didn't they bring more than three? Droidekas with shields would have been more effective. :D
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