What were they thinking?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Jan 2, 2006.

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  1. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    years and years ago [face_blush] have no memory of it.
    no no no, you won't get away with this... we know the jedi suspect lies, deceit and mistrust. so, while they suspected that they simply expected a *different* sort of lie, deceit and mistrust?
    but you already said what the jedi expected the sith to operate like. so, what did the sith do different from what the jedi expected? they had freaking ten years to figure something out beyond extremely rushed decisions and yet all they could come up with (when the sith used lies, deceit and mistrust - as expected) was a rushed decision and some half-arsed spying.
    so either they were delusional or extremely stupid. there was not even any emergency plan! they just made things up as they went along! it's quite amazing the jedi order lasted this long, when i think about it.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It was arrogance. Yoda lamments during his fight with Sidious and later while talking to Qui-gon, that it was his fault. He never let the Jedi adapt. They never considered that the Sith could do so. They were too busy fighting an old foe, that they never considered that the Sith were all new and all different. Qui-gon tells him not to blame himself. That all is not lost and that they will have time to prepare.
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    so, have you just confirmed that the jedi were entirely too stupid to get anything right? are you on drugs, sinister? :p

    and even in the light of already suspecting everything that would in the end happen you simply say they were a bunch of clueless force users? the entire jedi council? their collective wisdom? they simply sat back?

    you know, i would understand it if i had said that. this is knocking me off my socks.
  4. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I get it. the Jedi are too stupid to get anything right, but they still did the right thing in going to deal with Palps?. =D= we have a paradox here.
  5. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    It's the law of averages, Duggy. :)
    See, they have to get something right sometime...
    I guess squaring off against Palpatine on his own turf
    and his own timetable somehow qualifies...
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    darth_frared:


    What "boggles the mind" here, is that apparently you think that a more 'positive' outcome could have resolved ROTS - say, the good guys 'catch' the bad guys - but, even so, we could still somehow get the episodes 4-5-6 that we've had all these years.

    Have you ever thought about that?

    What's the point in the Jedi 'figuring everything out', if it's already established that everything 'goes to hell' in the future episodes?
  7. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Because figuring it out but being unable to do anything
    about it is much more compelling and tragic
    than watching the Jedi coucil fumble around
    and being led by the nose by Palpatine for 3 films.
    The council in "their golden age" look like
    a monkey ****ing a football.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    This isn't coming from me. This is from Lucas and Stover. I repeat what they wrote.
  9. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
  10. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But that's exactly what happened in ROTS. Even if the Jedi knew that Dooku was telling the truth from the second he opened his mouth, they still don't know exactly WHO Darth Sidious is and what he looks like until Palpatine confesses to Anakin.
  11. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> Because figuring it out but being unable to do anything
    about it is much more compelling and tragic
    than watching the Jedi coucil fumble around
    and being led by the nose by Palpatine for 3 films.


    Not at all.

    Watching them **** everything up (because of their own arrogance and because of their inability to see the signs from the Force telling them that they need to grow and change), but then seeing them go back to nature, become humble again, and LEARN from their mistakes, is FAR more compelling and satisfying, IMVHO.


    -JR :)
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    if that is your only argument regarding the stupidity of the jedi order.. it's pretty lame, don't you think? they *had* to be stupid? :eek: darn! they are a collective! if they can't get it right with their collective wisdom and continually fumble around in the dark and do not even manage to be compassionate (first priority on their agenda )they are an even bigger failure than i thought.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First, the Jedi are always compassionate.

    Second, Lucas is making a statement. That arrogance can be damaging. The Jedi were arrogant to think that they couldn't be defeated by the Sith, but that's exactly what happens. Then the irony of it all is that Palpatine is so arrogant to think that he can turn Luke and that Vader will never turn on him, that when things don't go his way, he winds up dead as a doornail. What's good for the goose is good for the gandor (sp).
  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    darth_frared:

    if that is your only argument regarding the stupidity of the jedi order.. it's pretty lame, don't you think? they *had* to be stupid? darn! they are a collective! if they can't get it right with their collective wisdom and continually fumble around in the dark and do not even manage to be compassionate (first priority on their agenda )they are an even bigger failure than i thought.



    I don't know.....why don't you try the argument on for size?

    How do you change what we got with the PT Jedi..........and STILL end up with the Episodes 4-5-6 that we already had?


    What's the magic solution, then?

    Make the Jedi "smart", but have them defeated by an "invincible" Sidious?


    You don't seem to realise that maybe Lucas made the PT Jedi this way because he didn't want ALL of the blame to go to Anakin/Vader - and Sidious.


  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    hm, you have a point with plot development...

    i have tried this on for size with anakin and him having to fall... i just wish the jedi order would appear more sort of, uhm, competent, you know? and maybe there's no other way it's done but this way it looks like the collective wisdom of everyone failed everyone.

    and i have read all sorts of things about why we always look for people to show us the way instead of trying to find the path ourselves and how democracy just basically goes to hell in a handbasket because we want more security and stuff.

    You don't seem to realise that maybe Lucas made the PT Jedi this way because he didn't want ALL of the blame to go to Anakin/Vader - and Sidious.

    i think it's specifically designed to show complexity to political and personal decisions and a great network of possibilites. (or something like that) i don't think it was about blame-shifting.

    Make the Jedi "smart", but have them defeated by an "invincible" Sidious?

    it is a problem, i admit it, but they could have struggled a little harder to stick to their own code not just run around unthinkingly. they just stumble through the plot, it seems and accept most of the stuff that gets thrown their way until they can act on their doctrine and go out to kill people. it's just inconsistent with an image i had of them as wise.
  16. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    it is a problem, i admit it, but they could have struggled a little harder to stick to their own code not just run around unthinkingly. they just stumble through the plot, it seems and accept most of the stuff that gets thrown their way until they can act on their doctrine and go out to kill people. it's just inconsistent with an image i had of them as wise.


    fair enough, darth_frared.

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