What will happen to Star Wars when George Lucas is gone?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by MasterDillon, Jun 15, 2011.

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  1. MrZAP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 5
    MY feelings on Lucas are mixed. On the one hand, he began everything, and without him we wouldn't have Star Wars here today. As has been mentioned he continues to contribute to the VFX industry. And I can't thank him enough for helping to give Joseph Campell more mainstream exposure.

    That said, I feel he's far past his prime and his star has fallen. He's said and done so many things involving the saga that I disagree with. His Special Editions- all of them. I've heard the first one had to be done for some financial reasons, though it's only a rumor. The second one didn't need to be made. This 3D conversion of all of them DEFINITELY does not need to be made. It seems like a blatant money grab and I am not a fan of 3D anyway- I feel it can be used (and often is used) to gloss over poor storytelling with flashy effects in the hopes of making more money. I guess the main problem I have with Lucas is he is TOO reliant on visual effects and new technologies. Everyone knows he isn't an "actor's director" and is more technically minded. He crams so much onto the screen that the mind can't comprehend all of it, and that's never a good thing unless you're TRYING to overload the sense of the audience. You've heard that Episode III commentary? Every single shot has some blue screen in it. Actually, that's probably another reason for the conversions- George wants to try it out, and what better way could he think of than converting Star Wars? Which is another, smaller beef I have with the man; he hasn't really tried to do much non-Star Wars related stuff in decades, Spielberg partnerships and ILM projects notwithstanding. Finally, there's his attitude towards the EU. He essentially treats it as an Alternate Universe or even a side-project, and that marginalizes all of the work hundreds of others have put into it, regardless of it's quality (and I think there are some pretty good things in the EU, even if it isn't all roses). Frankly it sometimes seems like he tries to downplay the importance of anything he didn't have a direct involvement in, but that might just be me over-thinking things.

    Filoni? I don't want him to take over the reins. I still can't get over the fact that Ahsoka even exists, just because of the huge problems it poses for canon and Episode III, and it's why I've never been a regular viewer of it. For that same reason (not being a regular viewer) I can't really say anything one way or the other concerning Katie Lucas, and I only know Jett Lucas as "George's son who dressed up as a Jedi who got killed in Episode III".

    Honestly if he weren't the same age as Lucas I'd say Steve Sansweet would be the guy I'd pick. Without him on the table I'd like a joint leadership of Howard Roffman, Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo, although I don't think it will ever happen. Together those three have a great combination of running and understanding the marketing aspect (Roffman), being immersed in continuity and canon (Chee) and having a decent amount of creative experience (Hidalgo) while all being prominent faces to the fan community.
  2. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    I can think of many more reaons I wouldn't want Filoni taking the reigns than "He invented Ahsoka."[face_frustrated]
  3. MrZAP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 5
    Yeah, but as I said I don't usually watch TCW (only seen five or six episodes plus the movie) so I can't give an accurate opinion on anything else. That's already plenty for me. It shows a lack of foresight in my eyes because there's absolutely no way Anakin wouldn't mention her at all in Episode III. Obviously that would be impossible as she wasn't invented yet, but it still adds so many unnecessary complications regardless of her actual character or how he finishes it.
  4. threepio_mania Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 3
    I think it will. Too much money to be made. It's essentially been taken over already with all the novels and EU stuff.
  5. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    I think it's pretty patronizing to suggest that Filoni and company didn't consider the fact that Anakin doesn't mention Ahsoka in ROTS while crafting her character. Of course they considered it. They've even talked about it. Filoni talks about it all the time, and how he talked to George about it, and how they both hoped Star Wars fans have retained their ability to sustain disbelief in the interests of enjoying a good story. I suppose they haven't.
  6. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    The turn of events I keep hearing is that Ahsoka is what remains of the original pitch to George, and that Ahsoka remained in TCW after it turned into a show about the movie characters because George wanted it. That could just be pure hyperbole on fandom's behalf, but Filoni himself has used "George wanted it" as an excuse for fan controversies several times over the past few years. So it wouldn't surprise me if it were true.

    And that's my main problem with Filoni, he has little creative back bone, or he keeps making very bad decisions and lumping the blame on everyone else. (And as someone who used to defend him venemously it honestly pains me to think it's either.) On the season 1 DVD's episode commentaries it's revealed, by Filoni, that the fart joke in Downfall of a Droid wasn't in the script but was a result of Mathew Wood mucking about with sound effects. And the same with battle droid humour, Wood seems to be labelled with the 'credit'. Perhaps Filoni genuinely enjoyed Wood's imprompt contributions to TCW, but it's interesting that pretty much everything controversial amongst the fan base is blamed on other people.

    The following are what Filoni have blamed on George Lucas and can be found in commentaries or on Star Wars.com in some capacity:
    The Mando Ret-Con, Ahsoka's dress sense, Ahsoka's bratty attitude, Ahsoka's nicknames (George apparently coined the term "Ahsoka-isms":oops:), Ziro the Hutt's voice, the fart in DoaD, battle droid humour, Jar Jar episodes, the Mortis arc, crap politics, Chewbacca being used for the sake of it, etc.

    Long story short, at best he's a third wheel and a public face for any hate, at worst he's an egomaniac who will blame his decisions on other people if there is a whiff of controversy about it.

    And I did put up with this because I thought "At least he's a man with a plan. At least he has an ending writen down and ready to go when the time comes." But seeing as at comic con this year he revealed he suddenly has 8 endings in mind I don't even have that to say for him any more!
  7. Sistros Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I think peoples problem {well mine anyway} is that we don't want to be treated like five year olds who accept anything without question, it insults our intelligence. A good story has consistancy, or else it comes across as a story written by an infant:

    example

    I went to the park, and i went on some slides, the moon was purple as the sun was shining brightly against the cold wind and damp air, I saw a hippo run faster than a piece of wood made out of metal.


    See? not a very good story is it?

    :p

    to me it's extreme arrogance to believe a fan base would accept anything without question.

  8. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    I think a better metaphor for Ahsoka is if you wrote a set of stories about your hippo and I go and add a wise cracking fox sidekick as an all new never before seen chapter based between two episodes of your creation. ;)

    But I definately agree with what you have to say on the matter. :D
  9. Sistros Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    exactly right [face_laugh]

    why thank you :D

  10. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    To a certain extent, I agree with you. LFL has tons of money and tons of resources and tons of technology that's light years ahead of what most everyone else has. They should be able to churn out episode after episode, season after season of good, quality episodes. But they don't. Not always. They falter sometimes, and there's really not much of an excuse.

    Or is there? Think about it. TCW needs to succeed on several levels. It needs to appeal to both males and females. It needs to appeal to the fan-in-the-making, a young kid who happens to watch a lot of Cartoon Network, knows nothing about Star Wars, and wants to watch something cool before he goes off and does his homework. It needs to appeal to the young fan, the five-year-old with the limited attention span. It needs to appeal to the dad who's sitting next to him, or the mom who's watching it with him, or the older siblings who have been Star Wars fans for life, or who are resistent to the idea of being Star Wars fans because it's not cool. It needs to appeal to the long-time fan, the lifelong fan, who stood in line to see Empire Strikes Back, and has seen this franchise through good and bad. It needs to appeal to all those people.

    And that's not even the beginning.

    Now we have to take care of the plot. We have to take care of the characters. We need some memorable locations. We need to keep a fairly accurate timeline of what's going on, and try to keep continuity in order as much as possible. We need to produce some cutting edge animation, which takes tons of time and care and craftsmanship. We need to plan, script, write, rewrite, storyboard, and shoot every episode. And we need to do it in a timely fashion, so everybody gets what they want when they want it.

    Now. TCW isn't perfect. Filoni isn't perfect. George certainly isn't perfect. But, all things considered, I'm willing to cut them a bit of slack. You see, we can sit here all day long and say "They should do this!" or "They shouldn't do that!" but we're not working in that environment, and we have no idea what goes into the making of these episodes. We really don't.

    Nobody's asking you to do that. But after a certain point, you have to admit that, yeah, Star Wars is a work of fiction, it's been around for over thirty years, different people get their hands on it at different times, and it's impossible to keep everything in line.

    Except that, hmmm, maybe Star Wars is a teeny bit more complicate than that. Maybe it's a bit more challenging than one person sitting there and saying "everything should be perfect!" when it really can't. And compared to other franchises that reboot themselves every other day, Star Wars has done extremely well.

    To me, it's extreme arrogance to believe that you could do a better job when the job is so much more complicated than you're willing to admit.
  11. JediMaster1511 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 10
    I was watching ROTS with my 6 year old brother a while back and he asked me where Ahsoka was. I told him I don't know, no one other than the people who make it knows really. He told me that was stupid and he has sinced focused more on Anakin and Obi-Wan and less on Ahsoka.

    Granted now, my brother is a bit more perceptive than the average 6 year old.
  12. Sistros Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    very silly argument to make.

    You know nothing about me, or if I have any talent at film making. I could be the next Stanley Kubrick, Hitchcock or Speilberg for all you know,

    the argument don't criticize what you yourself can't do, is also one not very realistic. If that is the case, then there will be a lot of Art scholars/ film critics out of work.

    Even Simon Cowell admits he can't sing. Yet he's made millions telling others they can't. Same principle here.

    And what's more complicated?

    introducing a character out the blue and expecting everyone to believe it

    or not introducing the character at all?



  13. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    I think the franchise has been losing its way for awhile, already. I would hope that if SW continues after it's creator is gone that it's spirit is retained and strengthened. Yet, I don't have much hope for that. I mean, to me, Star Trek lost it's way mid-DS9 and that was only a few years after the Great Bird died. I fear the same will happen with Star Wars if it doesn't happen sooner.
  14. Sistros Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I saw this and thought

    truly wonderful the mind of a child is

    the padawan is right


    :p
  15. Darth_Gamek Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    Now who does he like more? Ani or Obi?
  16. JediMaster1511 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 10
    Good question. I'd say Obi-Wan since he has more Obi-Wan figures than Anakin/Vader.
  17. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    There's more to it than talent.

    I don't don't care for film critics very much, anyway. :p No, that's not my argument at all. My argument is that you should consider all the variables. Even the ones you don't know. And I find it ironic that people consider the lack of Ahsoka in ROTS disorienting and nonsensical from a viewer's perspective, but do not think Hayden Christensen's Anakin should've been inserted into ROTJ. You can't have it both ways. But that's not the point. The point is that "It's stupid! She's gone! Where did she go?" is a gross oversimplification of...well...everything.
  18. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    I'm struggling to see your argument there. Ahsoka is a completely new creation that no one had ever heard of before and the audience is expected to believe she has shared an intimate relationship with two of the film's main characters despite not ever being mentioned in the movies. In ROTJ Lucas added HC to pander to the intelligence of children, who for many years seemed to understand just who the force ghost is, believing they wouldn't understand that Anakin has aged a good few years under that hood and turned into Sebastian Shaw. If Vader was always supposed to revert back to his younger self then why wasn't a younger actor used back in the day? You've used two very different examples to make your point.:confused:

    And on the subject of having to focus on all these different audiences, no Filoni doesn't have to do that. When you do you compromise the quality of your creation just to make more money by expanding the appeal of what you are selling. And then what makes TCW any better than a designed by commitee movie like Transformers?

    And there are plenty of examples of franchises that were aimed solely at a single demographic and exploded into multi-generational phenomenons because of their heart, interesting ideas and distinct lack of inconsistant tone and content. :p
  19. EmperorAndross Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2009
    On the fact of Asohka, I don't like at all as a character, but I actually don't find her sudden appearance/disappearance that hard to believe. If she was killed (which you'd think she must be) say 3 or 4 months before Episode III, there is actually nowhere in the movie where I could imagine her feasibly being mentioned, there is little introspection from the characters that is not directly related to the plot. Furthermore, one could argue (Though I think it's a bit far) that Asohka's death could be another reason why Anakin desperately wanted to save Padmé.

    I think far more tragic was the way that other characters have been treated, like how Obi-Wan Kenobi has gone from being a supposedly brilliant and inventive military commander to being Anakin's lesser sidekick and the butt of most of the shows jokes. Or how Grievous and Ventress have gone from an unstoppable warriors that killed hundreds of Jedi between them, to losers that even a 14 year old can hold their own against?the only death that has been attributed to either of them since I've started watching is when Grievous killed Nadahr or what ever his name was.

    For me, most of the attraction of TCW was lost by how they mangle the characters, because the stories are quite good for the most part, Although I would have liked the show to cover existing battles like Jabiim, Or Ord Cestus etc.

    For the most part, I mostly blame not Lucas, or Feloni, but the people who are actually employed full time by Lucas Arts to upkeep the continuity of the shows, because these people should be standing up to Feloni and even Lucas and saying: 'There is already a story that directly contradicts that, are you sure you want to do that?' because I get the feeling from the interviews that for the most part, they just don't know, and instead of telling them, everyone runs around trying to fix up the mess that's been made in the wake.
  20. Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2008
    star 6
    I'm seriously being a terrible mod here, because I'm letting this turn into an Ahsoka thread. But oh well. :p

    Psh, the films don't cover every single instance in the lives of these characters. Plenty of things happen to them offscreen that we can't see. We have to use our imaginations to fill them in. Ahsoka wasn't mentioned in the films because her existence didn't have anything to do with the advancement of the plot. But just because she wasn't mentioned doesn't mean she wasn't around.

    The audience didn't know what Anakin looked like during the time of the OT. When Shaw showed up as a Force ghost, it was easy to say, "Oh! That must be Anakin!" But now we have an Anakin. The audience has a perception of what Anakin looks like. When Anakin returns as a Force ghost, the lay audience member expects to see the Anakin they recognize.

    Not necessarily. There have been several franchises which have managed the revolving audience focus very well, and with great success. Harry Potter is one. Pirates of the Caribbean is another. It's not just all about money. That's such a tired argument that can't possibly apply to Lucas, who has more money than you or I can dream of. It's about respecting your audience, keeping it alive, and trying to maintain the spirit of the original films.

    Name some.
  21. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    Multi-quotes! Awesome! [face_sarcasm] :p

    However ROTS covers Anakin's fear of loss. Are you telling me that Palpatine wouldn't use the disappearance of Anakin's daughter/younger sister figure at any point while trying to manipulate him? Like it or not but the audience has been told that Ahsoka is an important figure in Anakin's life, and thus in Obi Wan's and Padme's life too, and that doesn't gel with a lack of mention in the movies.

    In 2002 people weren't going "Who's that dozy pillock at the end of ROTJ, grinning at luke? He must be mental!" because it was quite obvious that Shaw was an older Anakin. By your logic the 3D editions need Hayden Christensen in the unhooding scene too! (Good god, NO!!!) Y'know, seeing as it's his face the audience now recognise.

    And yet the first three Harry Potter books were aimed solely at children, with J.K Rowling then deciding to make the novels darker and more mature as her primary audience grew too. Each novel was still aimed at a single age group, and this is what aided them in becoming a multi-generational success. It's also important to note that they were hugely popular with older audiences before Rowling went down the rambling, club a whale to death sized volumes of her "mature" Potter era. ;)

    And I'm not even going to comment on my thoughts on the creation process behind PotC. You might turn into Uber-Mod.[face_whistling]

    The most obvious one screaming for attention is Walt Disney's classics. Fantasia, for example, was a film made with the main, and arguably sole, focus being on children. But the film was so well made that it caused an artisitc revolution in the West that stretches right up to modern day Pixar and Dreamworks movies.
  22. EmperorAndross Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Your arguments work both ways, how many children entered the Harry Potter series during or after the fifth book ? Apart from people who had to read it just because it was cool?

    The reality is that Star Wars has been around for a lot longer than HP and it isn't cool these days, for people in Highschool, it's a nerd genre. If the saga is to survive for another thirty years, new people have to be brought into it, and whether us older fans like it or not, TCW does do a job of capturing the imagination of children ? at my old primary school, they are holding a play based on SW this year, when I was going there, you were a nerd if you were into SW.

    Ultimately, there are two options, GL and co stop appealing to new generations and we lose the saga within the next decade or so (The PT didn't reënthuse people that much), or we let them go, grin and bare the bits that we don't like and have the Saga still evolving hopefully for a long time to come. Otherwise there will be no Saga to continue when George is gone.
  23. Sistros Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    The problem is though, you can save the saga in different ways

    introducing unlikable characters that turn up out of the blue is not one of them.

  24. Chewgumma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    Precisely.

    Would TCW really have been less popular without Ahsoka? Would a Star Wars cartoon have flopped without any involvement from the movie characters at all?

    There are a number of ways of appealing to children. Forcing a young teenager into the midst of already established characters wouldn't have been the first thing that would have leapt to my mind.
  25. JediMaster1511 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 10
    I'm pretty sure of all the characters TCW has had problems potraying, Grievous is potrayed according to GL's vision of him from the movies.
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