What would a real Jedi be made of?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Sith93Apprentice, Jan 23, 2013.

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  1. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Try some Form II (Makashi -- Count Dooku's Form) too if you've had any experience with Foil, Epee od metal Saber fencing -- the styles look very similar!
  2. Evil Incarnate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2003
    star 6
    It wasn't really posts like this that upset me. Continue to speculate these types of things at your leisure.

    I would venture to say that a real Jedi would be made of the following: Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sulfur, Sodium, Magnesium, Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron, Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, and Bromine.
    If they were human anyway. :p

    Evil.
    V-2 likes this.
  3. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Are midichlorians made of those too? :D
  4. Evil Incarnate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2003
    star 6
    I'm pretty sure that if medichlorians existed, they would be their own element on the periodic table.

    Evil.
  5. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    I think meditation is a useful skill to learn but it's not a knowledge per se. A close friend of mine, Dr. Hill, Ph.D. teaches the use of meditation, Tai Chi and Ritual Magick inside of the VA Network. The reason is because enough studies have been conducted to prove the case to the DOD that meditation and mindfulness improves performance and helps to manage stress. It is used to help soldiers coping with PTSD and complex PTSD.

    In the Navy Seals, techniques of meditation are taught to improve performance physically and mentally and of course this has been true in the martial arts for centuries. I decline to dismiss it as merely new age crystal waving hippy babble.

    A branch of Psychology , called Transpersonal Psychology uses conventional methods but also includes more esoteric methods from both East and West.

    When we see the scene of Yoda teaching Luke in the swamp of Degobah, the philosophy he is sharing there comes right out of a set of Late 19th Century texts on yoga that were being translated out of sanskrit around that time.

    From this body of material we a system known as Raja Yoga, considered the "King" of yoga. the latter meaning of course to yoke or unite the mind to something. this does not impart knowledge but strengthens and develops mental faculties like concentration, memory, conceptualization, etc. Vivakananda describes the process as the unfolding of the flower of light resulting in expanded consciousness and awareness.

    In the Buddhist methods in my martial art, meditation has a specialized purpose-to awaken the Third Eye (ajna chakkra) and enhance awareness and execution of technique particularly related to the movement of Ki. Sin Moo, or "the higher martial mind"

    The Jungian School draws it's blue print and event some of it's methods from it calls spiritual alchemy. That is, the alchemical doctrine that is based on Aristl's philosophy.. This has more to do with character development and improving the function of the mind than it does achieving mystical powers.

    The Ego or our sense of self is more of a by product of the function of the AO area of the brain, or association-orientation. This is the region responsible for our left/right orientation and processing sensory data. It gives us a sense of position in space, a sense of Self and a set of boundaries we need to function in this material world.

    If the activity of this part of the brain can be switched off, the Ego vanishes and something remarkable happens. We loose the ability to sense our boundaries, and thus the brain experiences union with all things. we loose the ability to center ourselves in space so the brain experiences itself everywhere simultaneously. Sensory data is no longer localized to a point in space and thus seems to be flowing in from everywhere at once. We loose our sense of Self and thus for a brief moment, we die and become something greater. We can gain insights or new perspectives here and sorta "think outside of the box" if you will. We can bring that back with us.

    Fear is a defensive mechanism used to support the survival of the Ego, which we also need to function in life and preserve our biological material for a new generation. Well, if you do something that creates the experience of yourself about to cease to exist gripping terror is fealt and you must push through that the first time and face your mortality. It just gets easier after that.

    Fortunately, once the AO area is active again, the Ego suddenly reappears and you realize you are not going to die or vanish into nothing. the brain learns toaccept the experience and get on with it. However, the "you" that you think you is not the real you, and the "You" that you were in your state of union is not you either. Choices that aggrandize and gratify the senses reinforce the Ego and the greater this becomes the more Narcissistic and self-serving a person becomes. they don't want to give up those attachments which inflate the Ego, mostly because they appeal to the limbic system and the mid-grain, which is the more primitive part of the brain and give us our baser animalistic impulses.

    Now, how do we classically define God? 1. He is omni-present, he is omni-potent, he is omni-voyant, and he is omniscient. Compare this concept with the above mechanism. for clarity on that, ask your friendly neighborhood neuro-cognitive behavior scientist.

    Ok, there is so much more to be said for meditation but I felt like I need to make a brief defense before it got dismissed as hippy new age quackery.

    When I think of what might go into the education of a Jedi, I think about things like investigation, diplomacy, conflict resolution, Killology (a study of how and why conflict escalates into violence), social sciences and humanities, creative problem solving, etc. this is the kind of direction I am trying to get it to go. What would a degree plan or syllabus look like in a Jedi Academy? Why would specific disciplines be necessary or how would they Help a Jedi with his function?
  6. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Ok, I'm finding it a little hard to accept that I am the only Star Wars fan on this site who has ever given thought to what it would take in our real world to make a Jedi. I'm certain others have had these musings even if for fun and I really would like to read other's thoughts on it if they find their way to this thread.
  7. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    I think a comparison to the Knights Templar is a good start. I've sure others have read the wiki, err, uh, Wookie on it. There is probably more Samurai lore wrapped up in the concept than Templars though. The Jedi don't have a social structure like Knights, Chaplains, and Sgts. It has more of a feudal Japanese structure to it and even the image is more of a Westernized form of traditional dress. Throw a cloak over it and viola, you're looking at Obi-wan. Is anyone familiar with Morihei Ueshiba? He was the founder of Aikido , he based his doctrine on compassion and he was a deeply spiritual man.

    Here in the West, so many fraternal orders draw their inspiration from the Templars but I think there are several other historical orders wrappped up in the concept. I think it's spot on to think of them as knight-monks though.
  8. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I've thought about it and decided that it's immoral. What modern day (or future) circumstances could justify the creation of such an organisation?

    What the hell. First we need magic.

    Let's imagine a future where we discover something analogous to midichlorians in the biology of every living thing. A multi-dimensional string-theory symbiont. Scientists reason these string organisms are somehow quantum entangled with each other in mind boggling ways and start to experiment.

    We obviously have no natural biological mechanism with which to exploit these magical properties. Here's your first ethical dilemma. This technology would be exploited for all sorts of purposes; computing, communications, propulsion, medicine, but inevitably the military would get first dibs on it as ever. We know the US and USSR have had made many foolish attempts at creating super soldiers in the past, so you may get your first generation of force users this way.

    Perhaps keen amateur gene hackers (which isn't such a crazy idea as it sounds, genetic programming is computer programming) tinker with their designer baby's genes (at a no-questions-asked private clinic). This is one way that the biological mechanism could develop/enter the gene pool.

    We could end up with a man-made divergence in human evolution. We're in Alfred Bester territory! Or Stan Lee territory. Or Frank Herbert territory.

    So we're now in a position where the rich and/or powerful get to breed superhumans and the military get to create supersoldiers. The public freaks out. These force users would be lucky to last 3 generations without being forcibly sterilised or otherwise murdered, but let's suppose they do, and that force-receptor genes eventually spread relatively evenly throughout the whole population. Let's imagine that this hereditary receptor is coded so well that it doesn't fade over the generations, but somehow the magical midichlorians determine individuals force potential through some as-yet undiscovered mechanism.

    Now we're in the GFFA realms of possibility. Now we can start kidnapping children.

    It's easy to imagine an X-Men/Babylon5/4400 scenario where force users are forcibly segregated from society to be educated by other force users, under government supervision. This would be an excellent opportunity to start a cult, were you so amoral or immoral to think it a good idea. It may take hundreds of years for such a cult to gain credibility and respect, though it would benefit from shaming actual religions (if we still have them) in terms of 'miracles' and healing.

    It would be an exclusive cult though. You're not in without the right genes.

    Once we've kidnapped and segregated a generation or two (or three) of superhumans, maybe they'd get mad and go dark side feudal warlord crazy, enslaving humanity, starting a new dark age, until one lot takes over and give back power to the mundanes/muggles/whatever. Perhaps then we'd get some sort of spiritual warrior tradition that's respected by the population as a whole (and not seen as completely crazy), but then we're in Herbert territory again.

    I've rambled enough. I've imagined a world in which it would be possible to answer your question, it's just not a world I want to live in.
  9. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Now you're talking. Well done. It is an ethical Dilemma, isn't it? I have labored sometimes for weeks just over the use of a weapon like a lightsaber alone.

    Let me take a step back for a sec though...

    The sort of thing I am always interested in is character develoment and human development.

    I don't know about super soldiers. I have known a lot of people in the military and some of those with access to privilaged information and I don't know if any such program actually exists. I think historically a case can be made that they have existed though but I wouldn't know anything about that.

    Some of the people who go through advanced military training learn that the human body is capable of feats beyond what the mind thinks. You don't really need super powers to get the body to amazing things.

    You have a really good point though. A Jedi would essentially be a kind of super soldier if they acted in that role.

    I can think of several instances where the government acted with extreme force however when they might have accomplished the job witha pair of skilled negotiators. There are a lot of people with very capable military skills and the problem I often find is that they lack the moral and ethical conditioning to apply force in an ethical manner. They don't teach ethics in boot Camp or ait, or ROTC or any of the civilian law enforcement academies. They only teach Law. If you do a search on warrior ethos, you get a very short list of bullet points that are so vague they are worthless to mitigate action. a military force doesn't need that though and trying to conform to those guidelines would be disasterous.

    Civil agencies do however need to operate in a stricter legal and ethical framework.

    I hate to ask this question but I guess it's really relevant if we're talking about Jedi and conflict and the responsible /ethical use of force-what place does morality have in it? Wouldn't that be a matter for developing good character On the other hand, people apply morality all the time as a metric for making judgements.I don't really see a Jedi order being all that out of place to do so. I just think it should be used during the training and education program and not for action.

    I think the notion that magickal powers are necessary is not entirely true. The very first thing that struck me about Star Wars is that because it is a myth, there is a lot of exaggeration involved. many of the force powers displayed are actually inflated versions of martial arts skills. Take the leaping lightsaber for example. We all see Telekinesisat work. Well, The Samurai used to have a trick they did. If you look at old woodblock engravings of a Samurai dressed for a night on the town, you would see a tiny line drawn from his wrist to the hilt of his sword. They used to tie a silk thread to their hand and practice an Ia-jutsu movement to yank the sword out and catch the hilt. If you've ever tried this, it's incredibly hard to do but if you're life depended on it, I bet you would practice often. To onlookers it literally looked like the guy simply lifted his hand and used magick poers to cause his word to jump into it. Mix some illusion with moldy food, intoxication on saki lack of eye glasses and nightimte conditions and you get the stuff of legends. This is true of many of things you see in the films. "It's all a bunch of simple tricks and non-sense". hint, hint.

    As for power and positio corrupting people, there's no argument. I think that's going to happen anyway whether there is a knightly order running around or not.

    About a Jedi circumventing morality or religion...well, wht is wrong with that? actually my8 thought is that they would learn and adapt to universal moral codes and learn to accept and even operate within the boundaries of social customs or as you pointed out, they wouldn't last very long. Even a super soldier can't fight a high powered rifle and a high point. That should be equalizer enough to keep them in check, but if it weren't, this is really where checks and balances would be useful. Most orders have been traditionally responsible for their own behavior and where this fails, they are subject to a higher authority or simply to another agency. This doesn't always work in practice and no system is perfect. However, if a Jedi gets out of line, it would be the task of his fellows to restore control and if they failed to do, so, the entire Order could be made responsible, or at least the chain of command.
  10. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Since you raise the topic of Eugenics, it's worth pointing out that this has been attempted since the Sumerian Civilization. I never liked the idea of Jedi being born Jedi. it was probably a device used to discourage discussions like this. did you catch the play on words? Oh be one? Can no be.

    I never liked the idea of predestination for exactly the reason that you point out. To state that people are born good or evil sheerly because of their lineage is a great way to support social competition. It has more to do with establishing and maintaining a caste system than it does the content of a person's character. However, this is already done all over the globe and it will continue to persist with or without a Jedi Order. It seems to me that a society of people with a solid set of practical skills, strong character and ethical code but no allegiance to any particular state or institution is exactly what this world needs.
  11. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Chi is imaginary. A lot of the martial arts snake oil salesmen will lie to you about the 10/90 nonsense. We use all of our brains all the time, unless we're unconscious or brain damaged.

    Regarding supersoldiers, read 'The Men Who Stare At Goats' by Jon Ronson. There were idiotic generals who were convinced humans can walk through walls and kill using thoughts, make an inventory of everything in a room with a single glance, use telepathy and telekinesis, etc. It turns out you can't, obviously.

    There's literally no point trying to make Jedi unless you have magic. Even then, there's no moral justification for making Jedi.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think there was something about 90% of the neurons not firing at any one time, and at any one time 10% are in the process of firing.

    A seizure involves all of them firing.
  13. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
  14. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Chi is not imaginary. The topic has been reviewed by medical professions, well educated doctors in Korea schooled in both Eastern and Western medicine. They examined dietary practices, breathing exercises and rules from different schools of Eastern thought such as Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism and Zen. They isolated a set of organs directly targeted by those practices and they discovered they are the organs involved in the production of adrenalin.

    Most of us have no control over our adrenalin. The brain can be trained to use this mechanism. What's so hard to beleive about that?

    Adrenalin has effects that explain some of the classic Ki powers: enhanced strength, rapid reflexes, enhanced endurance, enhanced perception, time dilation, effects on animals, etc.

    If you follow the instructions in some books, they give you a series of steps, then a metric to judge your results. The metric is a hot flash, sensations of heat or cold, vibrations, suddenly beading sweat on your palms and brow. They are describing an adrenal effect.the only thing that is imaginary about Ki is what people think it is and how it works. There are scores of medical professionals who take it seriously.

    In the Internal martial arts like Tai Chi, Bo Gua, Hsing-I Hsing-I, chi is ccategorized into 3 types: bio-mechanical, bio-chemical and psychosomatic. students learn to combine each of these three, body movement, stimulating adrenalin and concentration into a method based on Newtonian Physics to What is imaginary about that?

    You know what's amazing?Ki can be used to make an opponent lighter or heavier to paralyze them, manipulate their perceptions or even throw them to the ground without physically touching them. Remember, it's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense. I'll give you this challenge: look up an Aikido school, Hapkido School, Aiki-jujutsu or ninjutsu school and go in and ask for a demonstration. ask them to explain Ki to you and then show you some examples. Nevermind the academic debate on it. Just test it. Prove it. That's enough. What I have just said here is a form of simple code for different techniques which can be proven even if someone doesn't want to participate.

    making someone lighter with ki means using "ki" power to press into a nerve center and make their legs jump involuntarily. If you are doing grappling and set up to do a throw and they resist and change their direction, they can make their body "heavier" by rediecting your force and dropping their center of gravity. You can hook your fingers under the rib cage and yank upward. it's incredibly painful and the body will naturally jump away from the stimulus. You are just manipulating their reflexes and using their own body agains them. How does this look to observers?

    You're dancing around and wrestling and then you touch them and *bang* the other guy leaps up and is thrown with little effort.It looks like magick until you know what's going on. There are lots of examples of this sort of thing and they used to be considered military secrets. You get the picture.cause an effect.
  15. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Wait a minute. Who said anything about not using a ratio of the brain? Actually, I think for the record the problem is not that we do or don't use all of our brains it's that we don't know for sure what all of the brain is used for. If you said we did, then I'ld have to know how it was mapped and where the study is. We only recently developed radiological dye to allow us to image the brain while it's active and much of that is still under stesting and not released by the FDA yet. We have completely mapped the human genome, but we haven't finished decoding it yet. Even if it were so, I hardly think of MA teachers as snake oil salesmen. You can always just ask for a deonstration if you're the meat and potatoes type. they're usually happy to give them. It's true that everyone has their own theories. Ever watch Myth Busters? Great Show. did you catch the one on the ninja guy who said he could catch arrows? You know? he proved it. it's really not so far fetched once you learn how to do something and practice it. Really, you should look up a ninja school in the Bujinkan dojo Directory and find a group nearby. go and ask them for a demonstration. Ask them to do the one where you run up a tree. it's pretty crazy until you see them actually do it. Just take the challenge and go prove it or disprove it.

    Ok, the part about super soldier programs There is a lot of debate about whether or not people could do those things. Remote viewing is a great example. They used to use people all the time to draw maps of missile bases and installations. The success rate was beyond probability. If such programs really were successful, everyone involved with those abilities would be classed as a threat to national security. The real people wouldn't talk and that would leave the phonies to get publicized for misdirection. It's kind of pointless to speculate on that though since it can never really be proven or disproven.

    I personally know people who are very active in Atheist organizations. I know people with PSYCOP, MUFON and a handful of secret societies. I know people inthe spec ops community, 1 NSA guy and used to work for a CIA guy in a private business. Everyone disagrees with everyone else and everyone has their evidence. At the end of the day, academic arguments aren't really important. All that matters is whether or not something can actually be done or not and it matters little what we label it or how we try and explain it.

    that said, I really want to have the academic discussion

    Free your mind.
    there is no spoon.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    TV Tropes (so, take it with a grain of salt) - provides yet another technically valid interpretation- only 10% of the brain cells are neurons, the rest are glial cells.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetyPercentOfYourBrain

    So, one could say "10% of the brain is used to think with- because 90% of the brain can't be used that way- and can only be used to keep those cells alive"
  17. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Your page describes it as a myth too.

    I don't see the point in moving the goalposts to change the definition of the statement after the fact... But then I don't follow any ideology which depends on it being true (like all the self help 'unlocking potential' stuff).

    The passage about the piano is eloquent and quite agreeable, to me at least. :)

    @Sith93Apprentice

    Same argument to you regarding chi. There's no benefit in redefining chi as adrenaline after the fact. It's a discredited theory. Like chakras, there's no evidence for them, there's no physical biological mechanism that suggests they exist. There's no positive proof of chi, and as you point out, biology explains these things a lot better.

    Chi does not 'flow', it doesn't permeate all things, it's not real. I accept that the real things you describe really happen, but I deny it's for supernatural reasons. Chi is a supernatural theory, it's not an empirical theory. Chi theory is incompatible with biological explanations of so-called chi phenomena.

    Yes there is a ******* spoon. Open your mind to being wrong. You experiencing an adrenaline rush has no effect on the mass or weight of your opponent. Have you seen Derren Brown's stuff relating to martial arts and chi? There are some excellent yt videos of James Randi debunking martial artists too.
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The line about the glial cells is at the bottom, under Real Life.

    I tend to that, no matter what definition you use, the brain is still being used at "full strength" so to speak.
    V-2 likes this.
  19. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    So, after some thought it seems to me a Jedi's education would include topics from the subjects of Theology/ Humanities/social Sciences, Military Science, Criminology, and Diplomacy

    It seems like their skills would include those fromm the topics above as well as those from a Scouting program like first aid, CPR, vehicle operation, leadership, engineering, etc. Two of the examples of combat related skills I found in listings in , one the one hand, the Kama Sutra and on the other the 18 areas of training they used to practice in the Togakure Ryu. they were topics like unarmed fighting, pistol marksmanship, spear fighting, rifle and archery, meteorology horsemanship/riding, meditation, etc.

    Of course modern equivalents might be used but this is sort of the idea I am contemplating for the education portion. 1 part primary academic studies, 1 part secondary education and skills training, 1 part moral and ethical development, 1 part human attribute development and so on. Essentially the same sort of thing you might find in a good school system but more specialized and including a large syllabus of topics you almost never find. I guess I should go find specific examples and post those. Any thoughts? Arguments? Objections? Mocking one-liners?
  20. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    My moral objections include, but are not limited to:
    Placing children in a cult!
    Children plus weapons is a big no-no. Guns are right out.
    Training children to hold positions in a society that does not exist.
    'Human attribute development' I assume is a euphemism for NLP/martial arts mumbo jumbo.
  21. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Ok, I can tell right up front that someone like you would never embrace a warrior way of life. aOf course, that's your right.

    No, I am not referring to NLP. but actually it could be effective if used properly and integrated with a system of initiation. Let's get somethig out of the way...

    An organization is not automatically a "cult" if it it deviates from conservative mainstream exoteric religion. A cult is defined by a specific set of parameters, but I have no idea where you actually reside. Calling something a cult without any knowledge of it, let alone before it has ever been organized is really more of a means to dismiss it as fraudulent and harmful. To be frank. Christianity was a cult and many still exist in that religion. so too was the Church Of Mormon and practically any religious body that centers around a specific personality, real or imagined. It is a little disrespectful to call other belief systems a cult as a reductionist attempt to discredit them. For now, I'm ok with that, because it's just a discussion and I know not everyone shres the same value system. I actually had a dream the night after starting this thread where I observed a Sith like cult assembled for a ceremony and it was deeply disturbing. I'm not at all bothered by the idea of Sith either, but the dream had a way of showing how downright evil and frightening people might act outside the realm of ideological or practical differences. Sometimes calling it a cult is accurate, but if something has no form yet, it's just a dismissal. Alright, to each his own.

    My son participates in martial arts training at age 8. Many of the students at our school begin at age 5. They are already handling weaponry albeit like a kid would. it encourages focus. It's not a moral problem. Morality has nothing to do it. It is not "good" or "evil" to learn to use weaponry and to practice. Kids do it anyway instinctively. It's an opportunity to teach them a better way and the proper context. When they are swinging around a bo staf or kamas or something, they pay attention and focus because they understand if they have an accident they might get hurt. It's really concentration and that's training for the mind.

    practice versions of melee weaponry exist to make it safe. Wooden ones, plastic ones,, foam padded nerf ones, even guns, nerf guns. the kids get to have some fun in a structured controlled setting. There are even light-up versions with glow sticks or LED's in them. I have a set of Force FX ligtsabers myself because you know, I just couldn't resist.

    Kids go the shooting range all the time. The minimum starting age is 8. They learn with BB guns and soft air pistols, paintball, etc and do range shooting with .22's. I had a Rifle and Archery course in Boy Scouts at 11 and owned pellet guns long before then.I'm actually not as good as regular shooters but I don't invest my entire life in it either.

    We consider it a fundamental civil right here.


    Would you mind telling me what you do think is acceptable activity for people and why? What objections do you have to these ideas specifically besides just calling them immoral or cult like or fraudulent? I think your perspective is every bit as relevant as any other and at least it reflects sentiments others might have also.UU0
  22. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I'd rather not discuss my personal life with you, if that's okay.

    What objections do I have other than it being a fraudulent cult that kidnaps children and tells them magic exists? And trains them to be assassin/diplomat/monk? Well, none, if you put it like that.
  23. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    Oh, right. What I meant by human attribute development is not NLP. The term you're thinking of is Human Engineering....and what is wrong withthat?

    Actually, by attributes I mean well, attributes: Strength, Endurance, Balance, percision, timing. Mental attributes like memory, cognition, conceptualization, visualization, etc. Surely, you must recognize that human beings can improve on the characteristics they are born with, right? If that were not so, all teaching would be meaningless. Atheletes are made, not born, just as with Artists, Leaders, Engineers and others. That's what I mean.
  24. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I'm not sure you mean human engineering in the sense I understand it... Why train your kidnapped children to make ergonomic tools?
  25. Sith93Apprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    You totally lost me on that last remark. Are you thinking of IT stuff? What does ergo tools have to do with imaginary warrior societies? And why do you insist the students would be kidnapped children?

    Let me consider that for a moment. Granted, the kids in the Old Republic era are selected at birth, ok, kidnapped. They are raised as Jedi with no apparent contact with the families. In Luke's era, this is not the case. but if it were, what would be the best alternative?

    If you have to make a decision regarding a person with unusual powers, stop and think for a moment what their life would be like without proper training. If they are born that way, they can't help who they are and have no choice but to learn to adapt and work with what they have. Suppressing our true self is the source of aberrations that lead to unhappiness, criminal behavior and other social problems.

    If a kid is born with magickal powers or even unusual characteristics like excess strength, it becomes a problem not only for others, but for the kid as well. Consider the story of King Midas. His power was a real problem he didn't know how to manage. Even if it's not true, in a literal sense, it reflects a truth we have come to learn as a species.

    If a kid has a power that suddenly expresses itself at a strange time or when he get's angry or when he needs a delicate touch, or whatever it becomes a burden to him and then a curse. He can't carry it and it drives him to unhappiness and disaster. He can't live a normal life. He has no choice but to accept that he will never have a normal life, but he can learn to manage his abilities and be functional in relationships and society. If no one ever bothers to teach him then he has to carry the burden alone. What happens when someone discovers him who wants to exploit his talents for their own agenda? What if that agenda were harmful to others?

    In such a case, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the child and everyone involved to put him a nurturing environment where he can be with others like him and learn to function socially as well as Independently?

    Ok, I am actually against seperating kids from their parents. I think the best place is with the parents. Maybe this was a mistake that's hinted at in the story of Anakkin. Maybe if he had been kept with his mother and just given lessons or something he wouldn't have had the loss. Maybe he wouldn't feel isolated and alone. Maybe he wouldn't become emotionally driven to replace his mother with Padme and then struggle with her loss. Writers write to inspire others.

    At any rate kidnapping is illegal and immoral I agree. Since that is so, I can't imagine anyone kidnapping children to force them to make ergonomic tools. I just don't see the connection you made with that. Happens all the time in under developed countries. I don't know anyone who would agree with the practice.
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