What would a real Jedi be made of?

I wasn't trying to be cryptic, my understanding of the term 'human engineering' relates to ergonomics, I don't know what yours relates to, hence the question.

Not kidnapping.

I disagree with this assertion. I'm not sure what a true self means in this context anyway, but there are very good explanations for criminal behaviour that do not presupposed that criminals are not being true to themselves. Criminality is a human construct intended to limit the effects of natural human behaviour, imo. The acquisition of material wealth denotes status and power, which affords a wider catchment of potential mates.

How is your proposal not exploiting his talents for your own agenda? Who's to say your agenda is not harmful to others?

I'm a believer in universal comprehensive education, I think segregating children for their perceived differences (be that class, wealth, culture, religion, physical or mental ability) works against social cohesion.

Others like him, or others that you decide are like him?

I'm with Dawkins on this; labelling a child according to the superstitious beliefs of their parents or community is immoral. Deciding that your child shall be a monk or nun (or soldier or whatever) is immoral.

All I wanted to know was your definition of human engineering. Are we talking about a breeding programme?

 

Unless I'm missing something, your reply here just looks like a repost of my last post with no remarks from you. I don't understand what you're trying to show here. Let me just back up and revisit this idea.

It does not matter whether or not kids in the story version of a knight-monk are kidnapped or not much less because it only occurs during one part of the stated timeline. I never read or heard anything that suggested that kids were taken away from their parents against their wishes and without their knowledge. That's what kidnapping is and this was never stated in the saga or at leat the books I've read. I'm really not sure where you get the idea of kidnapping except to say something derogatory about the actions of story characters. Alright.

Since I am trying to relate the story concepts to real life it certainly isn't restricted to Jedi. Let me back up even further though...

What's the point I am driving at? Well, like Katsumoto Sanji from the Last Samurai, I would rather have a goooood conversation.

Did you know that Law Enforcement communities regularly organize military orders of Knighthood as vehicles for recognition of public service? If you live in the UK, then you must agree that Knighthood is something people there take very seriously. At least that's the impression I've had. The Grail Legends were fictitious too but they inspired people and continue to do so. What is wrong with finding inspiration in a modern day myth? The Rosicrucians were fictitious too when they formed as were several other societies. You could say they literally dreamed themselves into existence. You probably consider all of those cults though, right? If you thought of knightly orders as being cults too I would be shocked.

It's true though, at least in the United States. The social order shifted and the Constitution granted all citizens the right to bear arms and the power to meet justice, so a knightly caste was not necessary...but isn't it?

Ok, so about this kidnapping thing: it's old news, really. In feudal Japan the Tokugawa Shogunate achieved national peace using kidnapping as a tool among many. Heirs in rival clans were taken out of their households and made to serve in another's house. They were treated well because failure to do so would be an act of war. Today we have the same thing, only we call them Ambassadors. Liason Officers are the same thing. there is always a threat to the safety of these people, just as if they were actually kidnapped.

I think the SW story material just says that Jedi are taken away from their parents at birth. The only example we are shown of this, the mother was fully aware and both mother and child are given a choice in the matter. The mom actually encourages the kid to seek a better life for himself. That's not kidnapping at all, it's a life choice and neither was it illegal. the Jedi who discovered him worked within the boundaries of the culture, even though it was immoral and illegal in the story to "legally" free the child from his bondage. Where is the legal, ethical or moral trespass in that?

the entire notion that a real world knightly Jedi order would need to get it's recruits by kidnapping children is probably much more far fetched than the existence of such an Order would be.

 

I can see my comments, maybe there's a bug.

Do you see them when I quote it?

BTW I do live in the UK and your ideas about knighthoods are a little bit antiquated. Think of them as civil awards. The Order Of The Brown Nose as some like to call it is usually given to businessmen with old school ties to the government of the time, or senior members of the civil service, or generous donors to the various political parties, or friends of the royal family, etc. There's no Dickensian deference paid to these people. A small minority of the recipients of honours are popular figures in arts, entertainment and endeavour, 'normal people' can be nominated for honours for things like bravery and charity work, but there are only very few of these given per year.

 

Functionally The Jedi order is a combination of Interpol, The U.N. Diplomatic Corp and U.N. Peace keeper forces. So a Jedi in terms of mundane skills would need training in Law enforcement, Diplomacy and Paramilitary and possibly Counter-Terrorism.

 

So the SBS (and to a lesser extent the SAS), essentially.

 

I don't know anything about the topics of diplomacy or counter-terrorism I was just reading a book on self defense and home protection this morning, and finished a chapter on defense theory. Has anyone heard of the force continuum? No, not Force, but force. The application of force and what is justifiable under the Law. I assume I am corresponding with a lot of people in the UK on this board, so I have no idea what the Law is concerning this there.

Well, it's a scenario I think about a lot. What is a just response under what circumstances and what is excessive? the model for this is called the force continuum, at least in Law Enforcement here.

The idea is that if someone doesn't present a clear and present danger to your personal safety or that of others you are not justified in using force of any kind against them. This can be extended to cover property as well in an interpretation called Castle Theory. However, if there is a threat and clear intent, then action is allowed, but only that action which can be proven is meant to neutralize the act. It can not exceed the intensity of the act or ti becomes antagonistic.

for example, if someone verbally assaults you, your response has to be something to disarm or de-escalate the situation. It can be humor, or avoidance or retreating or educating or rebuttal in terms of healthy constructive conflict but it should not be shouting louder, resorting to insults or threats and so on.

If a physical attack occurs it depends on the level of the threat and it's intensity. These are usually judged by the officers who respond but if a case was filed it would have to go the D.A. If your friend pushes you because he's had too much to drink, in the martial arts world we use waht we call a brush off. Throwing himto the ground and beating him for a misjudgement is excessive. If he produces a weapon, or you ask him to back off because his behavior is threating to you and he still comes at you, that's his mistake and you are clear to stop him.

The Law actually prefers things like locks and holds because ethically they avoid the problem of two wrongs don't make one right. However no one can do these without training and even with that there are factors figured in which modify the judgement. If the defender is smaller, or elderly, or has a disability or something and the attacker is young, fit and aggressive, the defender can elevate their response to give them the advantage. it's still up to the Judge and the D.A. though and I actually knew a guy who had a home invasion where the bad guys drove a truck through his front window and chased him and his wife in seperate directions. he got his gun and shot one of them and chased the other off. He actually lost his firearm and was placed on probation for doing so. Perversions often happen but mostly people use this continuum of force model.

So, would a Jedi need counter-terrorism training? I don't know, I don't know what it involves. If it involves assaulting urban structures it's probably a misuse of force. If people are holed up in a building they actually have the advantage and trying to take it is risky. We had an incident here in North Texas in the '90's that was disasterous and a huge embarrassment. The siege on the Branch Davidian's compound was an axcessive show of force and everyone knew it. They probably could have resolved the matter with a team of negotiators.

Most people think about Ninja as medieval Japanese assassins. Well, recently I was reading the Shoniki and the point is made that Sun Tzu laid the foundation for Espionage in chapter 13 of The Art Of War. The use of Espionage is justified because "Military action is essential to the State..." but that it is extremely costly in lives as well as money to mobilize an army when the same results might be accomplished with a handful of skilled actors. Espionage is therefore both the ethical and the economic best solution. Now, regarding the Branch Davidian siege, I recall this favorite portion of the text:

"The peak efficiency of Knowledge and strategy is to make conflict altogether unnecessary. To overcome opponents without fighting is the best of skills. The superior militarist foils enemies plots. next best is to ruin their alliances. Next after that is to attack their armed forces. Worst, is to besiege their cities." -Sun Tzu

The Chinese characters for martial arts ( wushu) actually mean "prevent conflict" and the Japanese Samurai caste later developed the concept of "victory while in the scabbard".

So the whole matter of of preferring skilled actors to military force is quite an old one. I don't know how much this is used in counter-terrorism. I don't know if that would be a good role for a Jedi or not.

We actually had a guy in New England who confronted a serial burglar in his back yard. He was a College student in his early 20's and the offender was much larger with a hisotry of agression. the trespasser was struck down using a Samurai sword in the guy's back yard. There, Castle theory prevailed andthe other factors were considered. Normally the use of a sword would land someone in jail but the facts on the side of the side of the defender gave him a preponderence of evidence and the matter was dropped. I chased off a serial rapist several years ago also with a sword and the police didn't bat an eye at it but if I kept pursuing the guy I would be sitting in jail today. Thankfully he never got inside, but we packed up and moved immediately afterward.

The whole premise of this post I guess is I DON'T KNOW but I would personally include less formal military training I think building siege is a terrible way to ensure something ends tragically. is it necessary sometimes? Oh yeah. I'm not sure that would be a good role though..

 

*throws hands*
*flounces*

 

Strip away the powers and Ascetic Warrior-Monk/Nun trappings from The Jedi Order and what do you have? A Semi-Autonomous paramilitary Peacekeeping and law enforcement organization;with globular jurisdiction. And The closest Earth approximation of that would be a combination of Interpol Agent, U.N. Diplomat and U.N. Peacekeeper.

How did I arrive at this conclusion? I thought about the Jedi's Modus operandi and their relationship to the Republic; As depicted in the Films and EU.
The Jedi solve and Investigate crimes ranging from minor offenses all the way to terrorism and assassination attempts on VIPs; Their police powers include Respublic wide Jurisdiction. The Jedi also mediate disputes between Republic member states and have the authority to "Force" settlements. And In times of conflict the Jedi serve in a paramilitary capacity,resolving said conflicts by almost any means necessary.

 

It looks like this has died sadly, but to answer V2's question, no I can't see any remarks when a reply is posted quoting on my posts. Strangely I only see my post and that it is being quoted but nothing else.