PT What would happen if Obi-Wan was not on Amidala's ship?

Hello again, council. Thank you very much for sharing your views with me. That's the second thing that I want to talk to you about, but this one I was thinking about for years.

What if Obi One hadn't deceived Padme by hiding on her ship? At the time of his appearance Padme were saying to Anakin that it's his love she needs the most, actually accepting him even after his slaughter of the younglings. "Stop! Stop know... Come back! I LOVE YOU": just at the beginning of this most important line Darth Vader had discovered Obi One and had his anger attack which he didn't learn to contrl yet.

Amidala knew that there always was good in him, and right before his death Vader relates to that: "Tell your sister that you were right about me... Tell your sister that you were right". It's safe to suppose that in some way Anaking saw Padme in Lea, and his last words actually meant "My beloved Padme, you finally managed to save me".

But what if there were no Obi One on that ship, if Amidala was never interrupted and if Anakin didn't experience an anger attack (which he wasn't able to control yet since he has only started to develope his full potential)? Maybe she would be able to bring the good back to him two deathstars earlier? After all, it seems pretty certain that Anakin would never be turned to Darth Vader unless he trully believed that the dark side was the only way to save Padme, meaning that his love for this girl he valued more than his own life and the life of people who were with him for all his life (including other Jedi, including the children). Probably it was possible to make this love win over both lust for power and the influence of the dark side, to save Padme and finally become a loving family?

I guess we'll never know unless we make George Lucas drink a lot of whisky and then asking him this question, but I'd gladly get to know of what you think.

 

It's a fascinating thought. I'm not sure really what would have played out. I think, even if he hadn't shown up, Anakin was to far gone. It's one thing that bothers me about RotJ. Anakin murders hundreds of innocents, including children. There is no redemption for him at that point. Killing Palpatines shouldn't have really done that much to right those wrongs. He couldn't just go "well, if you love me, crap, guess I'd better give up this Sith thing!"

He had started down his path, and he was going to continue on it. He still thought she'd die, and he needed Palpatines guidance to do so. He was a Sith, and wasn't going to change. Obi-Wan just fueled his rage.

 

Anakin's emotions were out of control, honestly it's hard to say what would have happened. Could of gone either way.....

 

I think it's the exact opposite: Padme's life was the top priority, and it was fueled with his love. From the view you shared Vader seems to be a full-commited villian which he, as Lucas said on one of the DVDs, never was. In some sort the whole film was about the good that still in Darth Vader after all these transformations. Also George Lucas expressed his frustration about so many people not seeing this whole point and taking Vader as a pure evil, while the only pure evil was Palpatine ("the devil" as he called him).

So if one to understand the story he'd have to see this love and true devotion as key things I think. But there are many things to it, and I wonder if it was actually Jedi complete faiulre that lead to Sidious victory, including Obi One's tresspassing, Windu's neglection of Anakin etc. And I wonder most about how the story would go without the tresspassing.

And you've made a pretty good point about coming back from killing younglings. How exactly would it be done. At the end of 6 episode Anakin does the same thing that Amidala did: he dies because he.. had to die. Now that he is returned, he can't continue as Darth Vader, but he also can't continue as Anakin since all the crimes he commited. Padme couldn't continue without Anakin, and Anakin, returned from Darth Vader, can't continue without Padme. This is the key element of the whole story in my opinion.

 

The problem with that is just how Anakin is portrayed in the prequel films. He never quite came across as Lucas intended. Especially when the man who was meant to be the ultimate evil, rarely is seen as doing evil things. In fact, the only truly evil this he does is kill the Jedi that came after him in 3. Everything else is seen done by Anakins hand. To sell the idea that Palpatines was the true evil, he should have led the attack on the temple, not Anakin.

 

Firstly...

That's a brilliant observation, truly brilliant.

Thank you.

LOL! Funny imagery there.

Someone needs to try this!!!

Whoa, no! I completely disagree with you there.

A closer depiction of true evil, in my opinion, is watching someone making *other* people do things, through coercion and intimidation, and the selling of lies and half-truths, while they keep their hands clean, and survive with nary a blemish on their physical constitution. Think of those crazed, power-mad mullahs that encourage suicide-bombing in Islam, for example, without ever blowing themselves up. "You must do this, and it is the highest deed you can do, but I cannot." Or, alternatively, "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy -- and we shall have peace."

* * *

Now, as for the main topic...

My own belief -- and it is my own belief, for these sorts of topics are entirely subjective -- is that Anakin would have come to his senses, as precarious as his retreat into the Dark Side and the fumes of his own egoism had gotten, had Obi-Wan not appeared when he did and in the way that he did.

Anakin's thinking was fuzzy and he instinctually blamed Padme for bringing Obi-Wan to kill him, but in a more lucid moment, he would have realized this was entirely consistent with Jedi conduct, including his own, earlier in the film ("He's too dangerous to be left alive!"). Despite his dark deeds, there was still an angel inside Anakin, and on Mustafar, he is still that little boy lost. I will cite some (circumstantial) evidence for this:

- When Anakin spies Padme's ship on the landing platform, he erupts into a boyish run. This is far from the casual "Vader" gait he shows elsewhere and pretty much never breaks from in the subsequent films.

- Throughout his conversation with Padme, Anakin is manic, but lucid, and displays a youthful desperation and naivete, consistent with his earlier portrait of a frustrated adolescent, not a power-bent despot. Even if he is "twisted" by the Dark Side, he's not so twisted as to be beyond earthly concerns, nor to offer Padme a share of his power.

- Subtle body language: when Anakin spots Obi-Wan, he blows air gently out of the corner of his lip. Earlier in the film, he does this when trading insults with General Grievous, and when discussing the difference between the Jedi and the Sith with Palpatine at the opera. He is still the same person ... underneath.

- Anakin's character is such that he desires validation and approval of his actions from those closest to him. And he tends to be more honest around Padme, despite first trying to deny one affliction or another. Consider the nightmare scenes in both AOTC and ROTS. His first impulse is to pretend that nothing is wrong, even though Padme knows better, and Anakin seems to know it as well. I take this as a sign that she would have been able to break his hardened shell with a little more persistence.

- When Anakin "wakes up" after rising from the operating table as the newly-built cyber-ubermensch he has become, there is still enough of a flicker of regret and vulnerability in him to ask sorrowfully after Padme. He seems to have relented from his earlier belief that Padme had consciously betrayed him by bringing Obi-Wan along with her. This is also consistent with Anakin's sense of wounded pride and bravado, typically followed by sadness and grief.

While he largely did it to himself, Obi-Wan pushed Anakin toward his final destiny. Obi-Wan seemed, in my opinion, to choose the worst moment possible to emerge at the top of Padme's ship, just when Anakin was looking for the most sincere confirmation of loyalty and commitment from Padme to back up all that she had just said. His emotional frame was so staunch that he forgot all other concerns and possibilities. This was an horrific bout of timing on Obi-Wan's part, in my view.

It doesn't help that Anakin felt that Obi-Wan and the Council didn't trust him -- something which he confided to Padme shortly after saying goodbye to Obi-Wan as he left for Utapau to face Grievous. Rightly or wrongly, Anakin apparently felt fobbed off by Obi-Wan's words of comfort and praise, and this was the last he saw of him before Obi-Wan suddenly appeared, with suspect timing, on Mustafar, hands on hips, exuding deep disapproval at a private conversation. Obi-Wan seemed to almost treat the encounter as Grievous II ... all that's missing is a quick jump down and a cocky "Hello, there!"

When all these aspects are considered, I don't think it can be fairly claimed that the eventual outcome would have been the same, regardless if Obi-Wan had snuck onto Padme's ship or not. I think Obi-Wan's presence at that very instant dramatically changes the game. And it is one of many authentic story details that makes the prequel trilogy the wonderfully-subversive space-opera tragedy it is.

All JMO.

 

Wow, thank you on your post, friend! Very glad to know that there's a close thinker to me
I think that Gamma626 probably wants to see SW world in just black and white: either Darth Vader was crystal good or he was crystal evil. Of course he was evil since he slaughtered children. But he was completely different type of evil compared to Darth Sidious, decieved one, tempted one, the one who was forced to think that his friends were evil and traitors etc. Mr Lucas made it pretty clear in his interview that SW story is about Darth Vader's sad story, that he is victim and that there's good in him too, but even after that people continue to insist on him being simply evil

Also Lucas noted that Vader was always thinking that he acts for the good ("I will never betray the Reublic", "I restored peace and justice to this galaxy"), while Palpatine knows exactly what he's doing, which strings he pulls, which lies he tells. Darth Vader still believed that he pursued justice even after turning to the dark side, and Darth Sidious pursued clear, pure and unlimited power and nothing else.


I'll read the rest of your post later after work. Thank you again

 

If you go by the YA RoTS novelization - at least some of Palpatine's motivation was "anger at the corruption of the Republic".

 

I also remember reading in the novelization that just before Anakin runs off to meet Mace and Palpatine, he and Padmé experience a true connection through the Force. She experiences his emotions, and he experiences hers. In the movie, we see her staring out at the Jedi Temple, and him at her apartment. Later on Mustafar, during their conversation, Padmé tries to grab at that connection again, but because she is not Force-sensitive, she can't establish the connection proper, but she does sense goodness in him, and that's when she says "Come back, Ani! Come back, I love you!" She sees his face soften, then explode into rage - he's seen Obi-Wan and is now too angry to see reason. If Obi-Wan hadn't been there, I think Padmé would have redeemed him.

 

Same junior novelization, yes (the Stover one doesn't have that "true connection" reference).

 

If that line from the novelization that you are reffering to is canonical, then this is exactly what I was looking for.
And you also have a sharp eye to notice the softening in Anakin's face. Even after reading your post I had to re-watch that momen for 3 times in a row to understand what you were talking about. But it's there.

And if we analize that dialog more, the only time when Anakin's face turned really dark was when Padme reminded him of Obi One. Seeing Obi One he yells at her: "Liar!" — right when her words started to hit his heart. He must have thought that she lied to him because she brang Obi One to assasinate him, and he was never informed that she was deceived: Padme's throat was strangled, and Obi One never defended Padme's honor by telling that his appearance was managed with fraud (how Jedi is that?)

I think it's entirely possible that final creation of Darth Vader was done by Obi One in his "righteousness attack" (the same was sith have anger attacks). I see more and more how Jedi destroyed their world themselves, opening all the doors for Sidious.

 

I'm going only by the 6 movies and the analysis I can make of them.
As for Palpatine's motivation, that seems like a solid statement to me that he might have been thinking that he's cleansing the galaxy from its corruption. Wise man once said that no villian sees himself as a villian, Palpatine might be included. Still it's hard to see him as a "cleanser" or anything else but evil.

 

[It's a fascinating thought. I'm not sure really what would have played out. I think, even if he hadn't shown up, Anakin was to far gone. It's one thing that bothers me about RotJ. Anakin murders hundreds of innocents, including children. There is no redemption for him at that point. Killing Palpatines shouldn't have really done that much to right those wrongs. He couldn't just go "well, if you love me, crap, guess I'd better give up this Sith thing!"]

I always interpreted it as Vader just stopping the nightmare. Killing Palpatine doesn't erase two decades of his own sins, but at the very least, he can stop the source of the horrors and give the galaxy a chance to heal.

Maybe that's what Padme hoped he'd do. Realize the wrongness of his actions, help remove Palpatine from power and submit himself to the proper authorities regarding his own sins.

[He had started down his path, and he was going to continue on it. He still thought she'd die, and he needed Palpatines guidance to do so. He was a Sith, and wasn't going to change. Obi-Wan just fueled his rage.]

Anakin was already showing signs of not believing Padme long before Obi-Wan showed up. He referred to Obi-Wan twice, the first time saying, "I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan", then later asks her, "Because of Obi-Wan?" Obi-Wan hadn't even shown up and he was already suspecting Padme was under his influence.

Granted, him actually showing up with his hands on his hips ala Superman really helped to seal the deal though. :/

 

According to Jennifer Heddle of the Story Group - novelizations are canonical where they "align with what is seen on screen".

Depending on the interpretation, this might mean "where they don't contradict what is seen on screen" - but it might also mean "where they are identical to what's seen on screen."

 

True, but then again, the worst dictators in history rarely do their own dirty work. It is their orders to others that made them "evil"

 

The RoTS Visual Dictionary also made a point of saying that he sees himself as a saviour.

The lines from the YA novel that mention his anger:

"You have deceived everyone!"
"A painful necessity." What had the boy expected him to do—begin by announcing to the entire galaxy that he was one of the feared and hated Sith Lords, and then try and get elected Chancellor? "The Republic was rotting from within. The system had to be shaken to its core. Yet no-one, not the Senate, not the courts, not even the Jedi Council, could do anything. I was the only one who dared to clean up the mess." The old anger and conviction shook him as he spoke, and he felt Anakin's reaction to the truth of his words.
He paused. Time to let him think. Palpatine made a show of studying Anakin's lightsaber. "Are you going to kill me?' he asked calmly, as though it were a minor matter of curiosity.
"I would certainly like to," Anakin growled.

 

To be honest, I knew what to look for because I read it in the novelization first. But yeah, she'd almost brought him back from the dark side. I staunchly believe that.

 

This is an intriguing interpretation and analysis of the events that took place on Mustafar.

I'd go a step further into this tragic moment by trying to imagine things from Obi-Wan's point of view. First of all, it took some time before Obi-Wan came out of the ship. Why?

He was hesitant. And he was scared. Not scared of death, but scared of the prospect of fighting someone who had been so close to him, like a brother, for so long. Though we don't see this behind the scenes, it is implied as earlier Obi-Wan is practically spilling his guts to Yoda about not wanting to face Vader for this very reason. But Yoda tells him that Anakin is lost. That Vader has taken over.

Inside the ship, while Anakin and Padme are conversing, I imagine Obi-Wan had to take some time to pull himself together. He had to face Anakin. Whether he could talk some sense into him, or whether he would have to fight him was yet to be seen, but he had to be prepared. And he knew a fight was quite possible, after seeing the holo-recording of the Temple Massacre. So he finally rises up, pulls himself together, and walks out of the ship with confidence, not to spite Anakin, but to support himself through the weight of what might come.

And it just so happens that he walks out at just the worst moment, tall and poised, and the first thing he sees is Anakin lashing out at Padme and then choking her. Now, there is probably no doubt in his mind, the boy he once knew is lost. He's choking the woman he loves. He's gone off the deep end. There's no way to save him. Yoda's message to him from earlier probably rang in his memory at that moment.

 

Interesting thoughts on Obi-Wan's side, definitely, however one correction. He doesn't go out to see Anakin choking Padme, because Anakin didn't choke Padme until he came out and Anakin saw him, thinking Padme'd brought him there to kill him. THAT'S when he lashes out at Padme, and that's when Obi-Wan sees Anakin's gone.

 

I think it would have played out similarly. Padme would still have said "Obi-Wan said you killed Younglings," and the dialogue would again focus on how Obi-Wan is coming between them. While Anakin might not have immediately began Force Choking Padme, he probably would have abused her or raged in some other form. Anakin then probably would have taken Padme aboard his ship and sought out Obi-Wan and the duel would have taken place perhaps on Courcant or somewhere else.

 

I think it would have played out much like their final scene on Coruscant. He wouldn't Force-choke her, but she would still be in despair and very little would actually be solved.

 

Those are very cogent observations -- wish I'd made 'em.

The real tragedy of these two is the gulf in understanding between them.

Obi-Wan never really knows or seems keen to discover what, exactly, it was that impelled Anakin to side with Sidious and pledge himself to the Dark Side. Similarly, as you say, he doesn't try and clear Padme's name or exonerate Anakin's anger by offering a simple explanation for his presence. Whether he sees it as futile or not, the very lack of an attempt is sad and rather telling about the various disconnects and breakdowns in communication within the Jedi Order and outside of it.

Indeed, Obi-Wan immediately starts judging and berating Anakin, which Anakin automatically perceives as another lecture. Such calamitous handling of delicate matters is a very human failing -- something which Obi-Wan sort of admits to later on ("I have failed you, Anakin..."), but not with any degree of tact, discretion, contrition, or understanding; it's delivered more as an insult and comes mere moments before Obi-Wan mutilates Anakin and leaves him to burn to death.

Such disgraceful lapses in ethics and reasoning are predicted in this story way ahead of time:

OBI-WAN: You were banished because you were clumsy?

Clumsy ... and then some.

Ironic that this expression of incredulity comes randomly from Obi-Wan, engaging in his first real conversation with an "outsider", or a "pathetic lifeform", as he later deems those less disciplined and ascetic than himself to be.

The point seems to be that a grain -- and maybe much more than a grain -- of that prejudice still lurks within Obi-Wan, shaping his thought and his actions, in Episode III, and beyond, into the OT. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."

When learning stops, compassion ends.

Very poetically put.

I incline myself to agreement.

 

The man was off balance, saw the slaughter of his brethren and the fall of the Republic...but he's supposed to show understanding? <head scratch> Give 'feely good' oh-you-poor-boy vibes?

Now don't make the mistake of thinking I absolve Obi-Wan of any contribution to the incendiary incident (a pun), but to expect him to approach Anakin with the equivalent of "all will be okay, I understand you had your reasons to slaughter the Jedi, so tell me about it so I can feel your pain" is a bit much.

I guess the point of the post is that Obi-Wan drove Anakin deeper into the darkside because of Obi-Wan's own failings. No, Anakin couldn't fall, he was pushed.

Poor misunderstood murderer.

 

No, but possibly handle the situation with a bit more nuance than hectoring Anakin and speaking in paradoxical platitudes "only a Sith deals in absolutes" -- self-deceiving and self-serving -- and which invariably destabilize Anakin further, drawing the two into a torrid, protracted, and overwhelmingly-violent confrontation.

False dilemma. There were other ways in which the threat of Anakin could have been contained, but Obi-Wan chose blunt reproof, dogmatic evangelizing of his own position, and specious name-calling.

This is really quite ridiculous. Obi-Wan himself, lest I remind you, was eager to become a murderer before confronting Padme about Anakin's whereabouts -- he simply wanted the target to be Palpatine, not Anakin.

In order to fall, one often needs to be tripped or pushed. And once one is falling or has fallen, it is sometimes on other people to help them back up. That's what ethical leadership and moral guardianship are about; and the Jedi, with their sensitivity to the feelings of others, should be about inspiring other people to lead fuller, better lives, not driving them into anguish and ruin.

Luke's clear, firm appeals to the enslaved part of Anakin's conscience contrast powerfully with Obi-Wan, who casts aspersions, offers no way out, and refuses to back down from doing his perceived duty to a political order gone bad. Part of the madness of Obi-Wan is his belief in the ideals of duty and self-sacrifice, even if the leaders he serves may be ineffective or corrupt and he might heedlessly sacrifice his own life or that of others. We see this madness reach its apex on Mustafar.

George Lucas has even said that the prequel trilogy is about people doing bad things even when they believe they're doing good. Why this should stop solely at Anakin's arc, I have no idea. I think it can certainly apply to a character like Obi-Wan, who trained Anakin according to strict principles and seems to see himself as someone who must obey those principles without questioning them or the extent of his role in bringing about negative outcomes.

That's merely my opinion, mind you.