Lit What would you guys change or keep about Jacen's fall or where would you take him as a character?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by tylrkrby, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
    star 1
    Personally I would focus less on the brilliant *cough TROUSERS *cough Abeloth storyline and focus on psychological issues Jacen would have (PTSD, Survivors Guilt, Anxiety) and show him traveling to different planets hurt by the Vong interacting with survivors of the war and watching him come to terms with a new path he should take. Stay on the Path of the Grey Jedi and maybe he'll get visited by Vergere's Force ghost....more philosophy and character development then......BOOM, EXPLOSIONS:rolleyes:
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jul 29, 2013
  2. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    He would never fall. He would continue his studies of the Force, and replace Luke as the Primary Hero. Luke would fall into the mentor role and Ben would be Jacen's sidekick (although if we're speaking hypothetically, I'd also give Ben...you know...friends).
    Force Smuggler and Gamiel like this.
  3. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Really? I always like'd the idea of this whiny hipster philosophical rich kid who's constantly afraid of the dark side........FALLING. And having a hothead..sorta reluctant jedi like Jaina become the leader....more interesting that way. As for Ben he has plenty of friends! like........his dad.
  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    While Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin had Tahiri, Tenel Ka, Raynar, Lowbacca, Zekk, Lusa, Tesar, Tekli, and even characters we don't know much about like Bela, Krasov, Eryl Basa, and Ulaha Kore. And again, Ben has his dad...and I guess Allana? Seha has the potential to be a friend, but it seems like Denning only uses her to be the young character who interacts with the Jedi Council...reinforced by the fact that she's apparently Luke's aide now. Why doesn't he introduce her to his son, for goodness' sakes?
  5. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Refrain from "author bashing", please. Focus on their works. And Ben seems like that kid we all knew in High school that tried being friends with everybody but nobody wanted to cause he's incredibly awkward and unfunny.......
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jul 29, 2013
  6. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    I would change a lot of stuff operating on different premises at different junctures. Fate of the Jedi would have been more interesting if Jacen was a protagonist seeking redemption, for instance. Going further back, I would not have had him fall because it is such a non sequitur they've had to come up with a new justification for it seemingly every other book. Going further back than that, after the discussion in the NJO thread, a romance subplot with Danni seems like a missed opportunity that would have made Jacen more relatable as a character in his arc in the NJO, and provided more story opportunities for him afterward. I think it could even worked afterward if Denning didn't ship her out on a bus.
  7. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Eh, I find Ben's one-liners hilarious. Plus, being the Grand Master's kid, that pretty much guarantees instant popularity.
  8. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Ehhhhh doesn't do anything for me.....it seems like Denning constantly wants some banter between Ben and Luke butttt he can't do it worth his life......I've always wanted Luke to just slap Ben across the face after he tells a bad joke haha
  9. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    FINALLY! someone said what i was thinking. I wanted a Danni Jacen romance since Vector Prime. One of the few things I liked about it was the fact Danni friendzones Jacen right away. but yeah, they would've made Jacen much more interesting that way and a possible love triangle with Tenel would've have been good IF (AND THATS A BIG IF) it was handled well. I always loved the idea of him falling though it was just handled horribly
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Denning, no. Allston, on the other hand, pulls it off perfectly. Whango Mittphool? :cool:
  11. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    hahaha I'd forgotten that, Allston has his moments incidentally that was the last eu book i've read by the LOTF butchers. But I guess I was wondering why do you think Jacen should've stayed on the path of the light? Or for anybody else why not?
  12. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Jacen should've stayed on the path of the light because he was supposed to be the Big Hero, before Denning opened his mouth and decided they should bring Luke out of retirement. This forced Jacen out of the hero role, so Denning shoved him into the Big Villain role. It never should've happened. Jacen and Jaina should have been the focus of the novels going forward. In Dark Nest, Jaina should've been the one to turn Raynar back to the light (after becoming disillusioned with the Killiks; well, that would've happened in my version), and Jacen should've taken down Lomi.
  13. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    Jacen shouldn't have turned for the same reason you don't do that storyline with Luke coming out of Return of the Jedi. Darth Caedus doesn't arise out of anything intrinsic to Jacen's character.

    You could just as easily do the story with Luke with young Ben replacing Allana and say "oh well Luke had PTSD from seeing so many of his students die including betrayal from New Republic worlds and it broke him," or do the same thing with Jaina and give her a child and make it a maternal thing and say she had PTSD from all the dogfights and losing wingmen.

    It isn't a natural progression of his character, it was something contrived and inflicted on his character. And it's just a poor man's prequel trilogy rehash as it is, and the prequels weren't all that great to start with, so it was just piss poor storytelling through and through.
    Last edited by LivingJediDream, Jul 29, 2013
  14. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    I thought that was Anakin? but yeah I guess for that reason I wanted him to fall. Everybody was expecting this straitlaced serious Jedi to take the torch from Luke but instead they threw a curve-ball admittedly the curve-ball was terrible and hit all us fans in the groin but my point remains! BTW am I the only one that wanted Raynar/Jaina romance? I always thought he was an interesting character to watch grow and morph.....literally.
  15. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Yeah but
    I agree with you on the piss poor storytelling. And it wasn't a natural progression cause of the bad writing but hear me out. I always pictured Jacen as being more of a sensitive artistic character, someone more psychologically suited for meditation and contemplating then ya know watching his brother die, war, killing, being tortured. In response to all this trauma coupled with the pressure of being a solo would cause some major mental probs. Luke I always pictured as somebody that was tougher, less sensitive, and it felt like by the time he'd had Ben he'd faced down the Emperor and Vader so the dark side wouldn't be as tempting to him.
  16. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Anakin died so they gave the role to Jacen.
  17. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
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    Jacen should be stripped of the Force and play the same role as Daala in FotJ.
    TheRedBlade likes this.
  18. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    Nobody remember Anja Gallandro:(
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  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    I never read the latter-half YJK books, so I didn't realize Anja could be considered their friend. I've only read vague recollections, and I thought they ended up helping her but she was a rival. Or maybe I mixed something up.
  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    She hated Han Solo (and worked for an old rival of him) and planed to fake friendship with the Solo kids to use them to hurt him but actually became a real friend with them and changed side. The last time we saw of her Lando was planning to give her a job; my headcannon is that she became a part of the Smugglers alliance under Lando
  21. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Oh, okay. Wonder why NJO never mentioned her; maybe she's another case of The Authors Forgot.
  22. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    That's something I wished happened come one I mean if it worked for Ulic why not for Jacen? the whole "We can travel back in time but not strip somebody of the force seemed a little far fetched. The authors wrote it so everybody was clamoring for Jacen to get axed.
  23. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2010
    star 4
    Have a book series about his pilgrimage to other Force traditions follow the NJO. Never have DNT or anything after it occur. Have him gradually step up as the main POV character of the franchise along with Jaina.

    Be warned, for here I use the word "have" a lot and also, because altering Jacen's fate changes the EU in major ways, I'm going to cover more than just Jacen.

    If LOTF must occur: have the Jedi Order become split down the middle because of the conflict. Don't have Jacen be Sith. That oversimplifies things. But still have him start the conflict. Have him and his side be as legitimate as the other side, which Jaina should sit on. In the end, have them fight some type of duel to end the Civil War. Have Jacen lose. He's the thinker, Jaina's the more martial. Have a properly mediated solution to the issue that started the war. Perhaps have him, and not Luke, enter a period of self imposed exile, depending on how things went in the war. There's a lot here that I don't have mapped out. But that's Jacen's bit.

    If FOTJ must occur: have it follow from this. Have more of the initial books be about Abeloth. Establishing what she is, making her very menacing, learning her history bit by bit. Have Jacen be the one to initially learn about her, possibly while in his exile. Make his initial arc about uncovering information about her. Eventually Luke and Ben join him and they find the Lost Tribe and Vestara. Turns out that Abeloth's using the Lost Tribe and manipulating them as some type of Old God figure to head to Coruscant and use the force nexus underneath the old Jedi Temple to allow her to return to the physical realm. But for the initial parts of the book, they actually seem to help in looking for ways to stop her.

    Have Bwua'tu be CoS and Daala appointed as Defense Minister or some such thing. Halfway through the series, Bwua'tu is nearly killed in an assassination attempt (apparently by a Jedi, which allows Daala to crack down on them politically) and placed into a coma. Daala claimed martial law in response to the crisis. Have the Daala issue be a Jag/Jaina matter in which they uncover the truth with help from a high level government insider named Wynn Dorvan: members of the Lost Tribe were her assassins. Her preoccupation with removing the Jedi from the temple is both a result of her own biases and because she promised that the Lost Tribe would have access to the temple. But Jaina and Jag uncover evidence of her crimes and she's removed from power by the Senate and the Jedi in a valid, sensible manner. At the end of the series, she is tried for treason and imprisoned for life.

    The Lost Tribe attack Coruscant, forcibly fighting their way to the Temple. Lots of neat Jedi/Sith action but Vestara betrays everyone and somehow manages to start calling upon Abeloth. She and Ben had a duel but Ben's sentiments get the better of him and he lets her go. Luke and Jacen rush to "seal" Abeloth away and Jacen proves instrumental in doing so as Luke collapses. The exertion causes the wound from Shimmra's amphistaff at the end of NJO to "open" and nearly kills him.

    In the end, Bwua'tu dies and Dorvan is appointed CoS for his role in ousting Daala. Jag (because other stuff's going on and I don't have time to write it all, okay?!) becomes head of the Empire. Jaina marries him and she and Tahiri join him to start training Jedi in the Empire, setting the way for the Imperial Knights. Luke remains Grandmaster but Jacen becomes Master of the Order. Abeloth is sealed but the Dagger of Mortis is still needed to lock her away for good. Side note: Abeloth is not from Mortis. Mortis isn't a real place but the dagger *does* exist as a lost, ceremonial weapon of the Jed'aaii with immense power hidden away somewhere in the ancient remains of a Tho Yor.

    After this:

    Jacen truly becomes our male lead, a POV for the GA. Jaina becomes our female lead, POV for the Empire. Ben, as a great investigator, is one of the Quest Knights sent to look for the dagger. His journey will eventually see him in a series of fun, Indiana Jones type adventures as he looks for the dagger. Jaina gets her Sword of the Jedi trilogy, all about the formation of the Imperial Knights and a plot by early infiltrators of the One Sith to take over the Empire (don't worry she never learns about the One Sith, however). Jacen gets a three book series of his own written by Luceno about whatever the hell Luceno wants. The Big Three get one final adventure of their own in a stellar book written by Matt Stover. Outside of these stories, we get things like a new Rogue Squadron series with fresh characters to cover our none Jedi cravings. We do, however, get "Tales of the New Jedi Order" in which new short stories about Jedi like Kyle, Corran, Kirana Ti, and even new Jedi are written.
  24. dokratr0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2013
    star 1
    If Jacen had to fall, he shouldn't have decided to join the Sith. He should have...y'know, actually fallen.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  25. Darth Droid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2013
    star 1
    This.

    Dark Nest set up a Jedi Civil War pretty well actually, but they never acted on it. The Jacen/Jaina showdown should've been the epicest fight ever. FOTJ being a second oddysey for Jacen would've made a lot more sense. Fate of the Jedi (and especially the Lost Tribe, which is a faction of the sith I hate) should not exist. Abeloth could still work (along with the mortis backstory, which was actually was one of the more ispired parts of FOTJ) as a result of the destruction of centerpoint during the Jedi Civil War. Everything after NJO should have had the NEW Jedi Knights at the front, not their fifty, sixty, and seventy year old parents.

    With NJO and then a great Jedi Civil War storyline, Del Rey could've solidified they're glory over Bantam. As of now Del Rey has all but destroyed it's legacy and made it even more lilely that all of the post ROTJ EU will be wiped out (or at least from Vision of the Future onwards).