Lit What would you guys change or keep about Jacen's fall or where would you take him as a character?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by tylrkrby, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
    star 1
    That's actually really freaking brilliant, both of you got it. I feel like the European authors are afraid or just to lazy to make new characters so they recycle the trio into different situations that they have no place being in. For me I agree totally with the jacen storyline. I'd like to see him go deeper into the dark side while trying to balance himself with e the light but eventually he begins to lose his mind maybe get haunted by Anakin or Vergere they act as avatars of his conflicting allegiances. Eventually him and Jaina fight he's taken prisoner and stripped of the force meanwhile bad eggs on his side of the war are being hunted down by the GA and Jaina causing massive damage and death while simultaneously resurrecting anti-jedism. Setting up a sequel storyline. At least that's my pipe dream dream haha.
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  2. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    European authors lol I mean EU damn autocorrect.
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  3. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2010
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    The EU writers seem to have specific characters that they are comfortable writing and treat the rest as either expendable or they are relegated to oblivion. In response to your prior question about Jacen being sensitive and that being conducive toward him turning to the dark side due to the Yuuzhan Vong War, I think that if that was going to happen then it would have happened in Traitor. Setting aside the retcon that Vergere was a Sith candidate or whatever and simply conceding that she was, so what? If she was training Jacen to be a Sith in Traitor, that isn't what he learned from her and he didn't express the PTSD or Sith training in the next six books (I think he only appeared in five of them). On Yuuzhan'tar is when Jacen came to terms with the death of his brother and Chewbacca and the tragedy of the war and came to realize who he was as a person and rise above it.

    And do you know who was also trained by a Sith? Luke willingly apprenticed himself to one. Luke could just as easily been made into Darth Caedus with the exact same justifications by which Jacen was. And Jacen had gone through his own hero's journey by the time that he became Caedus and faced his own Vader and Sidious and emerged victorious, so that Luke completed his hero's journey and faced down Vader and Sidious isn't anymore compelling a reason for Luke not to than it is for Jacen.

    But the more important question to ask is, after the NJO series, why do we have to have a character turn to the dark side? Why that same tired plotline? Why not something new?
    Last edited by LivingJediDream, Jul 29, 2013
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  4. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Yeah but maybe Luke was stronger in character than Jacen in that regard. And I don't believe that for a second Vergere was, which in my opinion was one of the worst retcons EU has ever done. I believe she taught him to think in terms of grey. He however, took that philosophy and twisted it around......or the authors did....sometimes I forget this isn't real.
  5. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2010
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    You're trying to justify bad characterization. Jacen, and all the other characters, were written a certain way in order to facilitate the plot, rather than the plot flowing out of the actions of the characters. Luke had his own flirtation with the dark side in Dark Empire, and a lot of people are upset about that. I don't view Caedus as any different, but at least Luke kept his eye on the prize and used his position as Palpatine's apprentice to sabotage his war effort and ultimately came out of it without getting killed by Leia. Jacen had no motivation other than the plot, because whatever motivated him to become a Sith within the story quickly was forgotten whenever it became inconvenient for the plot. He did it so he wouldn't kill Luke? He had no problem trying. He did it for his daughter and girlfriend? You'd think the fact that his Sith doctrine told him he had to sacrifice them would make him realize this wasn't the way to protect them, but nope, instead we got the biggest cop out ever.
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  6. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Don't have Jacen fall at all. Have him travel from planet to planet helping out the people with his new force powers.
    If he has to in LOTF create a schism in the Jedi Order. A civil war occurs in the GA and Jacen does what he does in LOTF with some of his new powers and brings Jedi to side. Luke, Jaina and others eventually have to confront him.
    For FOTJ keep Jacen alive-evil or good. Either is fine by me. Strip him of the force somehow and have him find his way back against a weaker Abeloth. Get rid of the Lost Tribe. Luke can be horribly injured from the end of LOTF to mess with Jacen's reason for falling.
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  7. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Hmmm interesting....would you have supported it if you thought the characterization was better?
  8. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I can't stand the concept of Darth Vader II (Darth Caedus) on principle, because I had completely different expectations for the post-NJO. I fully expected the Solo twins to receive the torch like TUF setup and to become the leaders of the Jedi Order.
  9. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    I think characterizing Jacen properly and having him become Caedus are mutually exclusive. His arc wasn't written with the intent for him to turn to the dark side; that wasn't the point of the NJO. If anything, Luke was more "planned" to turn to the dark side in the films because they hinted at the idea and toyed with it in Return of the Jedi, and even then it wasn't something that fans expected or wanted to happen after Return of the Jedi. This is in contrast to Anakin Skywalker, who was Darth Vader before he was Anakin, and planned from the start to turn to the dark side.

    It was a jump the shark moment for the Star Wars EU concerning the Big 3 and their successors. They ran out of ideas and derailed Jacen, regressed Luke, and rehashed a storyline, and in so doing did -- in my estimation -- irreparable harm to that ongoing story. There was a lot more promise to future stories after reading the final page of The Unifying Force, versus reading the final page of Apocalypse or Crucible. The most interesting idea from the latter, the Holy Grail/Mortis premise, doesn't even involve the Big 3 or their successors.
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  10. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    I guess I was wondering IF it was done in a realistic way to you would you be interested?
  11. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
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    Problem is, save for taking the most cynical interpretation of Jacen's experience in TUF, there is no realistic way of doing it!
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  12. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    No, I understand that. I'm saying I really love the idea of him falling, how it was handled and the way the character was written made it unbelievable.
  13. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Responding to the title of this thread, I would have had Jacen discover more Force philosophies. I would not have had him fall.
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  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Which is what you seem to be missing - a whole lot of people despise the very concept of Jacen falling post-TUF.

    Without TUF in the picture, maybe a smart take could make it work, but with it? The idea's exploded on the runway at take-off!
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  15. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    Maybe TUF is what should have been changed in that case.
  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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  17. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2010
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    TUF and the rest of the NJO was changed in the Denningverse.
  18. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    So true.
  19. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    denningverse? (*full body shudder) well you know what I think sooo I guess the question is.....what character would you guys think would be interesting to watch turn?
  20. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    None... Legacy of the Force was originally intended to be set in the Sith era, and likely would have been fine there. We've seen Anakin Skywalker turn to the dark side. I would think that his direct descendants that knew him, or knew people that knew him, would learn from his lesson. I'd rather see a new story.
  21. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Yoda! (if he was alive)
  22. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    If they're making some spin off films on early Yoda it'd be nice to see him struggle with the dark side.
  23. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I said Yoda because it would be funny.
  24. tylrkrby Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2013
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    Ha.
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  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Do I want to know what this "Denningverse" is?