Lit What would you guys change or keep about Jacen's fall or where would you take him as a character?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by tylrkrby, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2

    Because it's been done, and was easily the most controversial decision of the entire Bantam run? Even without Del Rey's tonal shift post-NJO, Kyp would have had a 0% chance of surviving the series, just because he survived JAT when a lot of people thought he didn't deserve to. That would basically guarantee the loss of a character. Nah, I'd rather see a new character like Dolph, if someone has to die.
  2. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I think the Sith should've been alowwed to die with Palpatine.
  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I would argue that we have already lost Kyp as a character. He's become a silent observer. Making it a new character makes sense though if you provide a good backstory for how the Yuuzhan Vong War affected him (or her!). I bet Stackpole would have been game to write for the series with Valin Horn turning to the dark side and Corran Horn playing a large role.

    @darklordoftech, I agree that the Sith should not have been brought back after New Jedi Order, mostly because it's become a crutch for lazy storytelling. If there's a good story for it, I'm all for it.
  4. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2

    [face_sigh]I don't suppose I can argue with that...

    How's this sound: In a productive and well-utilized EU, using Kyp like that would be a travesty.
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  5. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Thinking back on who was available to "fall" during the Dark Nest/LOTF era, there really wasn't anyone convincing or even, well, interesting. A lot of Luke's students didn't have a whole ton of personality, and those that did wouldn't have made much sense (same problem we had with Jacen).

    In retrospect, I sort of wish they had just gone with Lumiya as the sole villain. She already had a lengthy backstory LOTF could have done a lot more with. And I honestly wouldn't be as PO'ed about Mara's death if it had just been Lumiya managing the whole affair, and Lumiya who did her in at the end. Then Ben and Luke could have spent part of the series working together to avenge her death, which would get the Luke/Ben plot going a lot earlier than FOTJ, which was really too little too late IMO.
  6. Don't grab the glowy end Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2013
    I loved the concept of Jacen falling. I liked the idea of a major character becoming shaped into something dark by a horrific war (the Vong invasion) in a PTSD sort of way. I liked that it was a character we didn't expect, and, as someone mentioned earlier, I like that it was someone who was once a whiny hipster Jedi. Even though it wasn't planned at the time, rereading Traitor fits perfectly with the concept of Jacen falling. And I loved Allston's characterization of him starting his fall by making rational rather than emotional decisions.

    Things I would change:
    1. Less "silly evil" characterizations of Jacen later in the series.
    2. A colder - but rational - killing of Mara, rather than him playing self-defense against her assassination attempt
    3. He doesn't lose a lightsaber duel to Luke and Ben in book 6 or 7 or whatever it was.
    4. More of a focus on him using force powers we haven't seen before.
    5. A much, much more epic duel with Jaina
    6. Let Jacen falling be a twist, instead of putting it on the cover of the first novel (same with Mara's death in Sacrifice)

    I didn't like the ending, but to be honest, I'm not sure how I would change it. Invincible should have had the most epic duel in the Star Wars universe, and it fell, far, far short of that.

    I know lots of people disagree, but to me, the problems with Legacy of the Force weren't with the concept of Jacen falling. The biggest problem was that it wasn't decided early on that Jaina was going to be the main heroine - even though she was a reasonably obvious choice. I think if the series was written from the very beginning with this in mind, it could have been awesome.
  7. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    My reason is that it undermines ROTJ's ending.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Traitor doesn't fit with Jacen falling at all. If Jacen was going to fall, it would have been during Traitor.
  9. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2

    Eh. I figure there's two ways around that argument:

    1. Sith weren't a thing until after ROTJ, anyway. Palpatine was retconned into a Sith much later.

    2. It's also a matter of interpretation. I like to think of it this way: Vader didn't turn in order to destroy the Sith; he turned to save his son.

    I do think we need to put some sort of moratorium on Sith, but pigeonholing OT plot points and storytelling into PT modes of thinking seems wrongheaded, especially considering how much flack the PT itself gets.
  10. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    There is absolutely nothing in the OT that suggests that Palpatine isn't a Sith. It was Veitch who made him a non-Sith.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Aug 1, 2013
  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    There's nothing in the original trilogy to suggest that Palpatine was a Sith, which is why Veitch didn't have him as one. Only Darth Vader was the Dark Lord of the Sith.
  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    And how does that mean he isn't one?
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    There is no reason to assume that he was because the Sith were an obscure dark side cult prior to the prequels, and a majority of dark side antagonists were Dark Jedi. It was a mystery how Palpatine learned the Force since he was a senator prior to becoming the emperor.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 1, 2013
  14. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    The OT itself didn't suggest either way. It was the EU that made him a non-Sith. EU aside, it's one thing to say that the PT shouldn't contradict the OT. To say that the PT shouldn't contribute anything is another story.
  15. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2

    DigitalMessiah is basically right; it's not a question of someone turning Sith!Palpatine into a non-Sith, it was a very specific decision of the PT that made origins-are-a-mystery,as-is-Force-training!Palpatine into a Sith.

    At any rate, I'm not saying the PT was wrong to make Palpatine a Sith, that's just something we've gotten used to. Still, surely you can see the contradiction between uncritically applying story concepts from the PT while ruthlessly disparaging its plotting, characters, dialogue, and basically everything else.
  16. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Maybe it's just a difference between us two (which I'm cool with), but I see nothing wrong with a "take what you like" approach.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5

    That's true, the OT didn't suggest either way that Palpatine was a Sith, but then the word "Sith" isn't uttered once in the OT, so from a film perspective, there's no such thing as the Sith. The novelization of the film called Darth Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith, but said nothing about Palpatine. Dark Empire doesn't state definitively whether Palpatine is or is not a Sith, just the same as the OT. It doesn't call him Darth Sidious, but that name didn't exist yet. Tom Veitch doesn't have a crystal ball.
  18. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2
    Maybe it's just a difference between us two (which I'm cool with), but I see nothing wrong with a "take what you like" approach.[/quote]


    Eh, it's not like I don't do the same, I just think it's important to stay aware of the juxtaposition.
  19. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I never said Veitch was wrong. Rather, I meant to say that nobody was wrong.
  20. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    If it had to be a Skywalker/Solo falling... how about a time-jump and it being a 30-year old Ben Skywalker (who has siblings)?
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    If you read it carefully that is exactly where he began his fall.
  22. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Dark Nest.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    ...are we arguing about whether or not DARTH Sidious is a Sith Lord?
    darklordoftech likes this.
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    And the Empire Strikes Back is right where Luke began his, right?
  25. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    In Traitor he accepts a philosophy that "there is no dark side" and that actions can be justified based on one's intentions. He suffers torture and witnesses travesties at the hands of the Vong. DNT and LOTF are simply about him acting on this philosophy.