Discussion in 'Literature' started by tylrkrby, Jul 29, 2013.
I don't see any similarity between the two. Do you?
You don't? How about Return of the Jedi?
All because he doesn't have a throne on Korriban and Vader does.
When does Vader have a throne on Korriban?
Vader and Palpatine try to turn Luke in ROTJ. But he doesn't fall to the dark side man. Or did you skip that scene lol
In Empire's End
Did you skip The Unifying Force?
Nope. Have you read Traitor?
Yep! I also read The Unifying Force. Have you read Dark Journey? Is Jaina in the process of falling?
Jaina fell more in Dark Journey than Jacen did in Traitor. Then we jump to TJK and Jacen wasn't even recognizable.
@The Supreme Chancellor : Please drop the condescending "have you read/seen X, lol" schtick. It isn't endearing.
@DigitalMessiah : Please don't rise to the bait.
No, Jacen did fall in Traitor. As brief a stint as it was, he went dark after blasting Vergere and Nom Anor under the old Temple. That said... whether it was a Force Ghost, a hallucination, or a result of Vergere's meddling, the image of Anakin correctly called out Jacen on the fact that his selfish "I-will-impose-my-will-on-others" behavior wasn't all that evil.
He, Jacen, came back from that by the end of the book. If he hadn't, he would not have been able to deliberately and willingly step back from absolute power in TUF. That was an ultimately selfless act that demonstrated an inoculation against falling that he retained from the events in Traitor.
This is an erroneous reading of the text, or at the very least an inaccurate summation. The philosophy that Jacen learned is that one must hold oneself accountable
for their actions rather than submitting to a "the devil made me do it" approach, that one must make a choice, act, and accept responsibility for the consequences.
"You seem to be telling me that what you do is irrelevant; all that matters is why you do it."
"That's not it at all—"
"No? Then tell me, Jacen Solo, if you had pursued the noble goal of saving those thousands of slaves in the manner of a true Jedi, what would you have done differently? Anything? Or would you only feel differently about what you have done?...Do you think it matters to [the] dead whether you killed them in a frenzy of rage or with calm, cool Jedi detachment?"
"It matters to me," Jacen said solidly.
"Ah, I see. You can do whatever you want, so long as you maintain your Jedi calm? So long as you can tell yourself you're valuing life? You can kill and kill and kill, so long as you don't lose your temper?" She shook her head, blinking astonishment. "Isn't that a little sick?"
Wow this thread actually managed to irritate me.
Jacen's fall was badly written, it lacked verisimilitude. And stinks of the same crap writing that make Nu-Spock take his planets destruction, peoples genocide and mothers death reasonably well, and have his bro-matic partner death send him of a rage fill chase to beat someone to death?
Jacen's death was a waste to preserve a poor status-quo for writing new stories.
Frankly Jacen, Anakin Solo, Mara can all be reincarnated in new characters no not with the same memories and relationships but with similar philosophies and personality traits. The fact none have even been attempted shows the commitment of the current writers in charge to writing the same stories with the same characters and nasuem to the end of time.
Nah, that would be an equal level of vandalism - the EU has really failed to use Kyp well, but that's true of the entire cast and not cause to kill him off or turn him dark. The problem I would have with Kyp going to the dark side would be the repetition of it and that it ignores that he was spare by Luke. Those factors are what drive him after all even though NJO failed to realise it. Then again, in NJO, Kyp enforcing the law on smugglers is deemed terrible!
Although others have done so, I feel compelled to point out that said philosophy is neither what is being taught nor what Jacen actual learns by the end of Traitor, and especially the end of The Unifying Force. What follows in DNT and LOTF is not just a mere oversimplification of his journey and lessons learned in the latter half of the NJO....it's actually straight up fabrication.
The Philosophy of Vergere and Jacen is that their is no dark side of the force, the darkside is internal, a persons evil, a persons cruelty.
Hell Jacen goes out of his way Not to Kill ANYONE after Traitor, from parasitic worms, Sekotans who take him hostage, a treasonous imperial officer who take a teenage girl hostage, and Yuuzahn Vong. He tries to save the Vong hell he tries to save Nom Anor, Nothing like the character or ideals displayed in any of Denning lead series.
Kind of indicating either Denning had no clue of who he was writing, or Jacens Character arc in the NJO. It seemed more like Denning constructed his Jacen out of fan theories the ardent movie-dual nature, force theorists.
I don't recall Jacen in the NJO saying that the dark side is only internal one single time, though I'd certainly be happy to be proven wrong.
No, he doesn't.
There's no devil in SW, rather the assumption that evil actions draw one towards the dark side.
Its in there.
Well that sums up that debate. lmao
-It wasn't me.
And the Empire Strikes Back is right where Luke began his, right?
We just had a debate about this in another thread this month. We've had a thread like this every month for about 11 years.
Vergere taught Jacen to love, to have compassion for everyone. She said that killing and killing, as long as you have good intentions, is sick. Vergere said the dark side originates in individuals, it's not some force that possesses you and makes you do things against your will.
Luke and Jacen rejected Vergere's philosophy, though they did end up adopting something similar in TUF.
In DNT, both Luke/theNJO and Jacen claimed to have been following Vergere's philosophy for the last 5 years (despite saying in TUF they weren't), but this philosophy was entirely different from what Vergere taught.
Here's a thought: What if Jacen was being mind-controlled by Abeloth? Would that explain his fall?