Discussion in 'Literature' started by tylrkrby, Jul 29, 2013.
She also said:
"You are born to be a gardener. Remember this: it is not only your right to choose flowers over weeds, it is your responsibility. Which are flowers? Which are weeds? The choice is yours."
"What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion ... but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness - true greatness of any kind - requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
What does Jacen call the dark side?
Whatever kind of Force it is that he's using when he throws Force Lightning at people.
I don't think that is what Jacen and Vergere were talking about. Maybe if we turn the statement she made around...?
It was explicit in the book that Jacen had blasted Vergere with the Force Lightning a few moments before- that was what he was agonizing over.
And he was blaming the dark side for doing it instead of taking personal responsibility. Thus...
It's a bit like Luke attacking "Vader" in the Dark Side cave- yes, it could be said that the Dark Side in the cave influenced him, but ultimately it was his choice.
Yet the Dark Side Cave is still "a domain of evil".
Why are you bringing up the cave on Dagobah?
Because, what Jacen did was a bit like what Luke did- he committed a Dark act, in an area which, according to Vergere, was "strong in what you call the Dark Side"- the site of the Coruscant Jedi Temple.
If the Force manifest Vader, or the dark side of the Force manifest Vader, why is this a distinction worth making?
If I recall correctly, the issue of the nature of the dark side goes uncommented-on by Jacen until at least Force Heretic III, if not The Unifying Force. Luke has a brief discussion with Vergere on the subject in Destiny's Way. Don't have these in front of me at the moment.
I'm going to emphasize two points here.
1. "The choice is yours."
2. "Greatness... requires the surrender of control."
Point 1 again comes back to choosing, acting, and accepting responsibility for one's own actions. This has less to do with Jedi or Sith mentality than it does with one's personal approach to life (read: this is as applicable to you or me as it was to Jacen). The only reason Vergere states that it's Jacen's responsibility is because he's in a position of power relative to your average galactic sapient, having been born into the Skywalker/Solo legacy with all that that entails. There are people suffering at the hands of others and he's in a position to DO something about it.
Point 2 is corroborated explicitly by the text at the climax of TUF.
Point 2 is corroborated by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in the films, but I find the Socratic method much more enlightening. Look, we even got to discussing the Dark Cave!
No He doesn't say it, but that's is the genera; gist of the Vergere/Jacen arguments. That morality matters to him even if it doesn't matter to the cosmos.
Not dissimilar to Deaths discussion with his Grand daughter at the End to "hogfather" "Grind down the universe to its finest elements and sift it through the finest filter and show me one atom of justice, one sliver of mercy..."
It was. Accusing people of not having read a book "carefully" enough is not how to begin a conversation unless you intend to wind people up, and amping up the condescension with "or did you skip that scene, lol" is not the way to continue it. DigitalMessiah gave as good as he got, yes, and that is why you were both warned. That is the end of the matter.
New matter: Please use the edit function beneath your posts rather than double/triple posting. Thanks!
1) Hmmm, well I wouldn't ever have him fall to begin with. Didn't fit the character when it happened and was a bad place to take him after TUF. I'd still have had him go on his journey, but from there he would've come back and slowly stepped into the role of leader that he'd shirked before. Sometimes working with Luke as he agreed with him on decisions, and sometimes against him as they didn't agree. Maybe still have LOTF happen, but have Luke and Jacen personally be split on how it should be handled, and for a time it causes a schism amongst the Order. No matter what happens in the war Jacen doesn't fall to the Dark Side. His reasons for what he's doing are just as understandable and well thought out as Luke's, but there are clashes and debates. At the end, Jacen and Luke come to a mutual and better understanding of each other and the Force as a whole, and Jacen and his followers return to the fold. From here, we see Jacen and Luke working better together, with Jacen slowly taking on the role that Mara predicted he'd have one day in DNT, that of a second in command.
At some point, I also would've thrown in a duology on his 5 year journey, what he learned and experienced during it, and specifically the people/teachers he met and was influenced by. It's said that when he was on his journey he questioned and challenged the beliefs of other Force using groups. That's classic Jacen Solo, the questioner, the student. Take that idea and use it to really take deeper looks at each tradition, don't invalidate them necessarily, but challenge them and have the characters and readers decide how sound they actually are.
2) Without getting too deep into every little situation that's where I would have taken things. Now, if LOTF had happened as it had and Jacen had fallen, I would've had him be redeemed and possibly stripped of the Force. The 2nd can be connected with the 1st as well. With the 1st he ends up going into a self imposed exile and becomes something of a wanderer, still calling back to his roots as a student, wondering where he went wrong and how he let it spin out of control. At this point, Vergere's teachings would once again become a major focus, and we'd perhaps even see here Force Ghost accompany him on his journey and serve as a mentor again. He'd travel the outer rim and unknown regions once again, but this time he'd be doing it as a disgraced hero who's lost his way, yet doesn't know why he lost it. He'd come into contact with perhaps a few of the groups he studied with, but mostly completely new characters and be forced to act in situations he was no longer comfortable dealing with on his own, as he's lost his ability to trust his own judgement, but he's forced to deal with the situations due to his conscience and Vergere being right there challenging him every step of the way. In the end he'd realize the point where he slipped up, maybe he'd started to only take part of Vergere's teachings into mind or had learned a harmful lesson from it, and come out stronger for it. I'd also have him go over some of the lessons he learned while on his journey with Vergere, and confront the value of those lessons.
Vergere would serve as his sidekick here, but since i'd probably write this as a trilogy towards the end of things she'd slowly be replaced by a younger sentient (Not sure what species or gender), who'd be Force Sensitive and at the climax of the third novel be taken on as Jacen's student. (He'd meet him/her in the first novel, but be too wary of training something after everything that's happened to him, and everything he's done in turn. A little similar to Luke not wanting to train some people after ROTJ because of what his father had become.) We've got the trilogy ending with Vergere bidding Jacen farewell and he and his new apprentice sitting down somewhere quiet and out of the way beginning a lesson. The lesson they're going over isn't verbatim what Vergere taught Jacen, but a mixture of what he's learned from her, his uncle, and himself. The student has learned from various different teachers and now has himself become a teacher passing his own lessons on. If he's been stripped of the Force, I may or may not have him regain it, and i'm uncertain as to what point i'd have him regain it, probably towards the end of the trilogy.
I think regardless of what happens it's important to emphasize the lessons Jacen learned from Vergere, as well as his own role as student in everything. And at the end of it all we have a classic "the student has become the teacher" moment of reflection and certainty, where Jacen is confident and comfortable with the role he's taken on.
Don't get frustrated with people who bring new perspectives to threads you find old. Vergere did NOT teach Jacen how to love. He had loved and been loved by his family and friends his entire life. This is evidenced right in the book at how torn he is about Anakin's death.
The matter is settled. Move on.
DAMN that's good. Reminds me of the Exile's journey in a way.
It's not a new perspective.
Vergere taught Jacen how to love who he is, and to love the galaxy and trust in the Force. Re-read the end of Traitor.
Can be summarised as: "The galaxy is a garden- full of weeds".
Add in her encouragement to think of himself as The Gardener, earlier on. It's a problematic mindset to get into. Pellaeon, saying virtually the same thing about the Empire in Destiny's Way, gets an awful lot of criticism from some fans.
The Jedi are gardeners by virtue of the fact that they take lives. You can't complain about it unless you're a staunch pacifist, because that is exactly what it is.
This is where LOTF's Vergere-is-a-Sith thing comes back to bite them in the butt: it makes no sense when you realize that she taught Jacen to love and Sith typically hate. Denning clearly misunderstood everything Vergere taught Jacen in Traitor–if he even read it. This is another case of the Jedi Exile-gone-Meetra Surik here. Many have complained that Meetra was not characterized well at all in the book Revan, and in addition Kreia, Sion, and Nihilus are just called "three Dark Jedi." Come to find out, Drew Karpyshyn openly admitted that he never even played KOTOR 2, and he just went with it and wrote an average Jedi who was a lackey of Revan. This is basically what happened with Vergere: Denning seems to have read general descriptions, maybe even false ones, about Vergere's teachings, and thought oh hey, that sounds Sith. He made it fit for the sake of the story he wanted to write, and it didn't even work.
The difference being that they do so defensively as a rule- never deliberately setting out to find "weed" type people and killing them.
Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion mentions Denning putting together a 20 page "Vergere Compendium" of her behaviour pre-death - for the Legacy of the Force series- as justification for the idea of her being Sith.
I'm wondering what was in it.
Where does Vergere say to deliberately set out to find weeds?