What's Lucas talking about here?

nope.the DVD says that anakin didnt know that palpatine would kill mace.he actually fell for the "im too weak" BS

because they are jedi.in his eyes they are not some inocent children but jedi or potential jedi at least

 

Another point to think about: Darth Sidious wasn't completely unarm as you might have thought. He had Sith lightning. Which ant anytime he could have thrown back at Mace. So legally it wasn't wrong to kill him. Atleast from that point of view.

 

Johnny-B said: "Darth Sidious wasn't completely unarm as you might have thought. He had Sith lightning. Which ant anytime he could have thrown back at Mace. So legally it wasn't wrong to kill him."

Ummm-hmmm! Tell that to Palpatine's allies in the Senate and the jury at Mace's trail! How they gonna prove that one?

 

"But Mace was going to arrest Palpatine," Knoll says, "and a few moments later he says that Palpatine's too dangerous to live. What happened?"

Lucas replies "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

This is from the making of book.

Mace chose...poorly.

 

"Ummm-hmmm! Tell that to Palpatine's allies in the Senate and the jury at Mace's trail! How they gonna prove that one?"



Some of the senate doesn't trust Darth Sidious either. So there might be a difference of opinion between the two parties. Some may side with Mace and some may not. Proof would be hard to come by...unless it was caught on a security camera. Which is possible. Because that's how Obi found out about Anakin. So there's your proof.

 

He's justfying what he has done as right. But in reality, it's about keeping his enemy alive to get what he wants. If Palpatine lives then the Jedi can put him on trial and Anakin can pump him for information. Thus he kills two birds with one stone.

Lucas has said in the Making Of ROTS, that Anakin basically has an ouburst of anger and Mace pays for it. So I believe that's why Mace loses a hand. If it wasn't done in anger, Anakin would've just blocked it.

They are, but he's trying to justify his actions as being the right thing to do. This is what Lucas says in both the Making Of book and the DVD commentary. Anakin has done something terrible and he knows it, but he cannot stop himself. He's too greedy and selfish. So he tries to justify it in his mind and what he tells Padme.

True, but he knows there is no going back now. He's no longer a Jedi and the Jedi cannot give him what he wants. So it's Sith or bust. He cannot live without Padme, so it's the Sith. The more he uses his anger and hate to kill, the quicker the Dark Side responds to his needs. It's like a drug addict. First hit gives them that high and they want more of it. So they keep using it and using it until they become hooked on it. They cannot see the bigger picture.

 

Here's my 2 cents.

Instead of surrendering himself to Sideous in return for the secret to stop death, Anakin should have beat it out of him. When Palpatine finally confesses that he doesn't know the secret, Anakin kills him. With all thge witnesses dead, no one would have to know about Anakin's little screw up with Mace, at least not right away.

 

In both cases of Dooku and Palpatine they were down and out. Anakin did not want to kill Dooku he had already won and Dooku was unarmed there was no point in it other then that Palpatine wanted him out of the way.

In the case of Palpatine if Anakin would have just let him kill him the galaxy would be safe. But Anakin saw him again as in unarmed man and that Mace won and they should have left it up to the law.

Like some other have said Anakin was right and wrong at the same time. In the heat of battle were both men are still armed and one get's killed well that's one thing. But when you unarm the person and they can't go on there is no point in landing the killing blow. Unless they have a lot of power like Palpatine.

 

If Anakin had tried to beat the secret out of Palpatine he would have been electrocuted by the Sith Lord in a second.

 

Ummm-hmmm! Tell that to Palpatine's allies in the Senate and the jury at Mace's trail! How they gonna prove that one?




Yep. I think one of the main points everyone seems to be missing is that the Jedi should NOT have been concerned with the dealings of the Senate at all. Big deal if the Senate voted to keep Palps in power past the normal term. Thats what a Senate in a democracy can do and does. Its not a Jedi problem, in no shape and in no way. The Jedi are "keepers of the peace" not "determiners of what should be" or "what is correct". Each Jedi has just one vote, just like everyone else who can vote in the GFFA. It was plain wrong and it was their downfall.



This does not mean the Jedi are evil. They are just arrogant, misguided and as such, became treasonus.

 

There is a weakness in the Republic's Constitution.

Recall what Mace said..sorry, can't remember the exact quote, but that the Jedi would have to take over after they had arrested Palpatine for treason, etc.

The Republic needed a Vice-Chancellor to succeed Palpatine. In that way, there would have been a smooth transition from one to the other.

But, I suppose Palpatine would have had a Vice Chancellor in his pocket or have him/she purged along with the other leaders who disagreed with the Empire.

 

The Republic needed a Vice-Chancellor to succeed Palpatine. In that way, there would have been a smooth transition from one to the other.

But, I suppose Palpatine would have had a Vice Chancellor in his pocket or have him/she purged along with the other leaders who disagreed with the Empire.


I have basically assumed the republic Senate had a line of succession, given how large it was and how old. But youre right, Palps successors may have been worse.

 

Worse?

IF, If the Jedi had been able to take care of Palpatine, the new Chancellor would have one heck of a mess to clean up.

The corruption, reform the Republic, the rebuilding of cities and worlds destroyed by the wars.

Just winning back people's confidence in the Republic would have been a huge task.

 

Worse?

IF, If the Jedi had been able to take care of Palpatine, the new Chancellor would have one heck of a mess to clean up.

The corruption, reform the Republic, the rebuilding of cities and worlds destroyed by the wars.

Just winning back people's confidence in the Republic would have been a huge task.




Yep. It really is pretty obvious that the Jedi didnt think thru their plan. Even though Yoda had a warning, I dont think even he fully recognized the full extent of what they would have to do. Edit: And to top it all off, the Clone/Droid wars would still have continued. So much for Yoda/Jedi seeing the "real" future.

 

Voodoo:

Let me see if I have you right...

If an evil Sith Lord... the SW equivalent of Hitler or worse!... gets himself elected Chancellor... manipulates the Senate into extending his term indefinitely by creating a phony WAR that rages across the galaxy and kills who knows how many... the Jedi were supposed to say...."Well, isnt that something. But we don't dabble in politics. Better sit this one out?". And things would be BETTER for this somehow?

Hmmm...

BTW... when Sidious gave Order 66 to slaughter all the Jedi.... what was the "legal" justification for THAT? Or the moral justification? Did I miss the scenes where there were trials for the Jedi, or any evidence presented? Or are we applying the sort of circular reasoning that says that since the evil and amoral Sidious had 'legally' become a near-dictator, he can order the execution of anyone he wants? And that, since it is "legal", it is therefore "right"?

I really can't understand the hunger on this Board, on the part of many, to justify, rationalize, and almost support the fictional evil of Sidious and Anakin, and to run down the only clear force for good in the movies, the Jedi...

Shadow

 

Voodoo:

Let me see if I have you right...

If an evil Sith Lord... the SW equivalent of Hitler or worse!... gets himself elected Chancellor... manipulates the Senate into extending his term indefinitely by creating a phony WAR that rages across the galaxy and kills who knows how many... the Jedi were supposed to say...."Well, isnt that something. But we don't dabble in politics. Better sit this one out?". And things would be BETTER for this somehow?

Hmmm...


OK, what would you do ?? Send in the FBI or CIA and have him killed ? And then have a non-elected government set up for you ? I dont think thats the answer. It boils down to the voters, IMO.


And the Palps comparison to Hitler isnt really fair. As far as I can tell, Palps didnt kill anywhere near as many people as Mao, Stalin or Hitler did. And Palps controlled many, many more people. Remember, Gov. Tarkin a non-Sith punk, destroyed Alderann. That may have made Palps angry or disappointed, not happy.

 

There are weaknesses in Lucas's script.

This was one of them.

 

Lady Z:

I don't think that most people who watch the SW movies... who don't read a lot of the fan-related stuff... interviews with GL, etc... will see these movies as we "fans" do. The fans have heard GL talk about Jedi flaws that led to this or that, etc...the average viewer has not. And to that average viewer, I think the Jedi come off better than they do to many fans, who will keep trying to find these flaws, point at things as evidence of Jedi arrogance, etc. To a viewer with less of an insider's perspective, I think the first three movies will depict a tragedy...how an evil, ruthless, dictator managed to work the political system, fool the people, turn one who was a major threat into an ally, and slaughter his enemies, while the Jedi were unable to stop him.

GL's vision does seem a bit unclear when it comes to Sidious, when his various comments are taken into account... suggestions that the war somehow corrupted the Jedi, or that their arrogance somehow helped Sidious come to power. He presents few clear alternatives. Again, what would GL have them do? Sit on the sidelines as the monstrously evil Sidious comes to power? Frankly, I think it is hard to suggest what other alternatives were open to the Jedi. To the extent that this represents a "weakness" in the scripting, I would tend to agree with you.

I think a lot of folks here use GL's comments are grounds for "blaming" the Jedi for their choices, as if it is a given that they screwed up, that they have no onus to present what the Jedi SHOULD have done differently. "Detect Sidious sooner" is not really an answer. And "sit out all poltical matters" doesnt seem to be answer either, at least to me... that just puts Sidious in power and the Jedi..where? Does anyone really believe Sidious would simply let them be if they had chosen to remain neutral?

Shadow

 

I don't think that most people who watch the SW movies... who don't read a lot of the fan-related stuff... interviews with GL, etc... will see these movies as we "fans" do. [


No if, ands or buts, you are 100% correct.

Does anyone really believe Sidious would simply let them be if they had chosen to remain neutral?



Hmm, no not really. But, thinking about it another way, if the correct choices had been made, Sids plans could have been delayed until he died, making his power to save life arguement mute.

 

It is true we fans turn the script inside out , side ways and upside down examining every little comma, and quote.

GL had to condense in two hours or less the Fall of the Chosen One, the end of the Clone Wars, the rise of Sidious and the beginnings of Empire, the death of Padme , the birth of the twins and Vader donning the black suit.

Much to condense in ...how long was the movie?...

To cover so much terrority in such a short time is a gigantic undertaking.

Might be a good topic for discussion if it has not already been discussed :

Scenes we would have added or improved upon.

 

mace kill palps?

under whose authority?

which court...?

thats why.....

 

You have to consider that Sidious wasn't exactly defenseless, as was proven by the 4,000,000 volts he charged through Mace sending him to his death. It wasn't that Sidious was unarmed, it was that he was making it APPEAR as though he was unarmed. And, while it's true that Jedi don't strike down defenseless opponents, in the Mace/Sidious duel it was a battle to the death - although Mace, at saber point, gave Sidious the option to give up before he launched in with the lightning.

Remember, the part Anakin missed was the part where Mace tried to arrest Palpatine and Palpatine was the one who instigated the violence. Mace was merely prepared to fight and defeat the Sith Lord, but unfortunately was outsmarted.

Absolutely.

The thing is, yes, the Jedi WERE flawed. Yes, they were even arrogant in TPM about the return of the Sith. However, they really had no choice. It wasn't that the Jedi were "wrong", it was that Darth Sidious was just that smart and that evil that he turned the situation against them.

People point to Yoda ordering the Clones in AOTC as a sign of weakness. What was the alternative? Let the Confederacy, led by the Sith, grow in strength and take over the Republic by hostile means? Or let the Republic, also unknowingly led by the Sith, defeat the Confederacy and turn into the Empire by slick manipulation and other hostile means? Where exactly is this "lesson" that the Jedi were supposed to have learned to handle the situation differently?

Upon finding out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious, the Jedi realized their "blindness" (which wasn't exactly their fault) and did the right thing by confronting the Sith and trying to stop them before they enslaved the entire Galaxy.

 

oooooooo kkkkkk this is my pov ....the whole mace vs sidous thingy ....

k he did all that was right to do morally and legally ..he did both ....im not gonna kill someone just because that someone wants to take over my house ..no ..im goin to call the police and have him kicked out or put in jail....so anakin did the right thing ..even slicing mace's hands off ....see what u guys dont see is that the reason he asks himself what has he done is because he sees sidious blast him with lightning...anakin didnt expect him to do that thats why he was sooo surprised and in sorrow........see what he did was right thing to do ..but the reasons he did it for were bad ...he didnt care about sith rule or the universe or the senate...he only cared for padme's well being ..which is possesiveness

 

BTW....re Sidious and Hitler... if we count Alderann in the mix, believe he may even have trumped Hitler's death toll. But not sure we measure evil purely on that ghastly scale.

One interesting thing is, because of the structure of the movies, we see little of Sidous' reign. We see his rise to power, then we come in as Luke comes "of age" and things begin to fall apart for Sidious. We spend most of the last three movies on the outskirts of the Empire, on backwater worlds (Tatooine) or remote badlands (Hoth), etc. We simply don't see what the day to day life is like on a more "typical" and central world, like Coruscant. As a result, we are left to speculate. And argue a bit. But I would say that, based on what I saw in the movies, comparing Sidious with various bloody, evil dictators would be fair enough...*S*

Shadow

 

i wanted to believe anakin was right, when he interrupts mace windu and says, "you can't. it's not the jedi way." i thought, hmmmm, anakin has a point.

then anakin had to say, "i need him," when he attacked mace windu. to me, he was darth vader already. he knew what he was doing, that's why he left the council chambers in the first place. he had his mind made up.