CT What's so "dark" about ESB?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darklordoftech, May 27, 2013.

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  1. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    ROTS was trying, unlike AOTC.
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  2. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Dack , many stormtroopers, , Admirial Needa and Ozzel beg to differ..
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  3. leiamoody Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2005
    star 4
    Oh who cares about Imperials and a walk-on character? :p
  4. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    I can't believe this is even a question.

    • The good guys lose (how often does that ever happen in a movie?)
    • The protagonist has his world shattered. Everyone in his life has lied to him except, ironically, the bad guy.
    • The story is turned on its ear for the audience. Before that, Vader is just the posteized bad guy who Luke must ultimately defeat.
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, May 29, 2013
  5. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    There is always one..
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  6. Darth Dnej Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2013
    star 1
    It did, but the second installment should be the darkest. However, seeing as these were prequels leading up to darkness, I will give a little slack.

    However, I still think Episode II should have had the events of ROTS.
  7. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    My God I think we've found our main villain for Episode VII. :p

    As to the original question, the heroes lose, the main hero learns that the person he despises is really his father (the person he idolized), Han's fate is left unknown. Pretty much what everyone else said. :D
  8. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    While ESB is darkest in tone I would have to say ROTJ has the darkest moment. Luke getting electrocuted by Palpatine's Force lightning.
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  9. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    Sci-fi movies from the '70s, as well as a lot of the popular movies from the '70s, were gritty and violent. The Planet of the Apes sequels, Zardoz, The Omega Man, Soylent Green, Rollerball, as well as Taxi Driver, The Warriors and just about anything set in the uninviting New York City of '70s film. That was one way the first movie was so popular because of the escapism.

    Another thing that makes The Empire Strikes Back "dark" is the cinematography, especially compared to the other movies, and the settings. Desolate Ice planet, inescapable swamp, odds-defying asteroid field, mysterious city with weird industrial architecture inside and an seemingly-emotionless security force.
    Still, it didn't deter kids from getting into it. It's hard to shy away from something with awesome toys. Along those lines, Return of the Jedi gets a lot of crap for having a more commercially-centered focus but there was just as much if not more and more popular merchandise for TESB.
    Last edited by Bobatron, May 30, 2013
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  10. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Really? Id have to say Luke having his hand chopped off and then Vader's revelation along with rather falling to his death that join his father was a darker moment. I actually thought Vader just standing there clubbing Luke with objects darker when he starts to see how out classed he really is.
  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The movie that is considered the lightest features the obliteration of an entire planet and billions of innocent lives lost.

    But yet it is not the darkest movie in tone, it's not just about the individual actions in a movie. It's about the atmosphere they are trying to create
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 31, 2013
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  12. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luke was able to resist those moments. He was able to escape Vader on that pole after his hand was cut off, the father reveal was damaging but he was able to stay defiant and get away. With the objects he was able to keep fighting, it was pointless but he could still fight. With the lightning he could not fight back. Besides with that mechanical hand of his I'm sure that made it hurt more. I'd rather lose my hand than get continuously electrocuted.
  13. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 2
    It would be a different saga without R2-D2's actions. That's for sure.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Leia was never tortured in ESB.

    I don't believe that Lucas was following the same formula for the PT . . . especially since he was telling a story that was supposed to "end" on a dark note. AOTC merely took the dark events of the story one step closer, just as TPM began that story.



    Are you saying that it was okay for Obi-Wan to send Luke to commit patricide without knowing the true identity of Vader? Or what are you saying?


    I don't believe that a major battle between the Rebels and the Empire was depicted at the beginning of ANH. The Organa ship carrying Leia and the Death Star plans was merely captured by Vader. That's all.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jun 1, 2013
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  15. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    I wouldn't! I'll keep my hand thank you very much, once its gone its gone.

    To answer your points, in ROTJ he escaped by redeeming his father who saves his life by killing his attacker. His father then dies of his wounds, but he is saved and dies a good guy. It's a happy ending. His hand is mechanical, it's not very well designed if it causes pain on a short.

    He was able to fight the objects yes but it was hopeless and you could see him giving up.

    In ESB he essentially gives up on life and falls to his doom to get away from his torturer (his own father) after having his hand chopped off. It's all opinions of course but I know which I consider 'darker'
  16. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    I've also never really understood why TESB is considered to be that dark. It's certainly darker than the other two films of the trilogy, but the darkness is lightened a lot.

    Yes, the Rebels lose the Hoth battle, but we never see any consequences of that. They lost and that's it.
    Yes, Luke loses his arm, but he resists to join Vader (and that was Vader's goal). So Vader didn't succeed.

    In the end, the only real loss I see is Han. But he is not even lost to the bad guys but to a "neutral" party like Boba/Jabba.

    Anyway, what I like about the darker films of Star Wars is the presentation. It's primarily thematically dark and not just filmed in a abundance of dark images. There are many movies that just rely on a dark screen where you can't even determine the objects and characters perfectly. I hate that. The last Harry Potter films failed in that regard for me. There was an always dark screen and I was supposed to feel the darkness. But I didn't. It just felt uninspiring.
    So I'm glad the darker Star Wars films (mainly ROTS and TESB) did better.

    I agree. ANA feels more superficial in a lot of ways than the other films. ANH basically ignores the losses and moves on, "we have no time for sorrow", because it's all about hope and creating a better world.

    But how would you image Episode III to be then?
    Episode IV is the dawn after a long night, it's A New Hope. I don't see how Episode III would fit in if AOTC was actually ROTS.
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  17. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In ESB he was able to escape or hold his on his own, in ROTJ he could do nothing but hope Vader could save him. To me that wins. Besides Luke knew the risks of lightsaber fighting, who would expect the Emperor to use Force lightning?
  18. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    That doesn't make it dark IMO. In ESB he would have felt despair, betrayal from obi wan, horror at the revelation of his father. In ROTJ he probably just felt pain. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, if you don't agree with that, we just feel differently about it.

    I think most people agree with me though ;-)
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Emotionally yes that is worse.
    Physical injury wise I'm sure getting continuously electrocuted to death is worse. Can you name a worse way of dying?
  20. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Im pretty sure there are a lot worse ways to die, I don't thin that's the point. you dont agree with me that the scene is darker.

    You say he was able to escape in ESB and that makes it ok. Escape was not his plan, he fell to get away and death was the most obvious outcome of the fall. THATS Dark. He gave up, he lost hope.

    In ROTJ he never gave up, even during this allegedly dark moment, he never gave up and pleaded to his father who he never gave up on. He was right, his father saved him.

    Not dark IMO.
    Last edited by tulwinn, Jun 1, 2013
  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "you're doing it wrong."

    darklordoftech:

    Dack, Admiral Needa, and Admiral Ozzel....would like a WORD with YOU.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 1, 2013
  22. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Emotionally you would be right. I wouldn't say he gave up. Isn't there some explanation out there or something that states because Vader told Luke that the Emperor had foreseen him overthrowing him that Luke could escape and live or something? Luke didn't want Vader to win (since he had no idea if he was right or not) and knowing that joining the Empire was the wrong course of action, stayed true to himself. Physical attack on someone else? Getting electrocuted continuously has to be the darkest attack in the saga. That or Anakin getting burned or donning the suit in ROTS
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  23. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    I think Anakin burning is probably the worse way to die even he was lucky enough to survive that.
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  24. erectedplane Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2013
    What was so horrible wasn't the arm getting sliced off, that is easily replaced in the Star Wars world, it's the emotional trama that drives him to near insanity. After he fell down he landed on what im thinking is a radio antenna (or something like that). He called to leia, the only person he felt any connection to because he was in such a state of turmoil and shock. Then after he was rescued he became delusional. This was vaders plan all along, to emotionally toy with him. Fuel Luke's anger by taking the only real friends he'd ever had and tortured them. Vader knew all along than Luke wouldn't join him. It was all part of his plan to extinguish the rebellion. He eliminated Han Solo who was an up and coming leader, and emotionally destroyed Luke who was labeled "The Chosen One" by those inside the rebellion. Yes, he did live up to his name in the final movie (as far as we know). But, just the whole plan of Vader to play with Luke's emotions, thats why this movie is so dark. It shows how fragile we are as humans, it shows our flaws for those we become attached with. This is what makes Vader such an effective tyrant. He has no emotion. His bridges were burned when Padmè died in the third movie. This was Vader's beginning of molding Luke into the next ruler of the Galaxy. He was slowly burning all of Luke's bridges, destroying all those he held dear to him. We focus too much on the loss of the arm as the "Dark" part, but what almost all of us miss is that the arm loss (though it is extremely significant in the fashion that he is becoming his father) it is the emotional toying that Vader undertakes that is truly one of the darkest in the Star Wars franchise
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  25. Athiest_knight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Sith is the darkest film to date. But New Hope was darker than Empire.
    1-Uncle Owen and aunt B were torched
    2-guys arm is sliced off in the cantina
    3-opening scene rebels officers die in gun fire
    4-Leia is getting some needle jab in her...not sure what it did to her? Truth
    5-Rebel pilots dying left and right on the attack of death star.
    6-Alderon is blown up...millions of lives are gone

    Empire
    1-Lukes hand
    2-rebels on Hoth die
    3-Han is carbon freeze

    I guess since the Sith, every film after is dark because the Empire is in rule....controlled by two Siths.
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