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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

What's So Great About ESB?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    To start, I want to say that I enjoy the movie. It's a great movie. But I've noticed that by far among die hard Star Wars fans, The Empire Strikes Back is the collective favorite. Why?

    Reasons Why It's Not the Best
    -The Wampa
    -Leia Kisses Luke
    -Battle at the Beginning as Opposed to at the End
    -Hiding in the Astroid
    -Some Yoda Scenes Drag On
    -No Ending

    Everyone raves this movie and trashes The Phantom Menace. Here's a little stat:
    #1 SW money maker: The Phantom Menace DOMESTIC GROSS $431 Million TOTAL $925 Million
    #6 SW money maker: The Empire Strikes Back DOMESTIC GROSS $290 Million TOTAL $533 Million

    This means something. It has to, TPM nearly doubled the gross of ESB. That's no small feat. It means everyone loved TPM when it came out and then learned to hate it, while everyone hated ESB when it came out and learned to love it. Do some "hard-core" Star Wars fans want to be different than the petty regular people who have seen Star Wars but don't love it? Did they see that "regular" people liked TPM so they, as a true fan, don't like it. And no "regular person" likes ESB, but the devoted can't get enough of it?

    ESB fans, dont hate me. I like the movie (but ROTJ is my personal favorite), but I just wanted to know: What's the deal with ESB?
     
  2. Lord_Alved_Pepom

    Lord_Alved_Pepom Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005
    Wow, it's people like you that take the fun out of SW.




    ESB was amazing, and people love it.


    TPM was great, but most hate it.


    I do agree that some, if not most do "go with the crowd" in hating anything that has to do with the PT, but still, will you sleep better at night if...well....what are you trying to accomplish?


    And TPM made more? ummmm, how many years did diehard fans made from the OT wait for a new movie?


    Both movies are great...I really don't see what you're trying to accomplish...um, we're dumb and you're smart...happy?
     
  3. LATOPADEYOR

    LATOPADEYOR Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Because the Empire Wins!
     
  4. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Lord_Pepom, dont spaz. I wasnt attacking anyone. I just notice how so many people on these thread trash TPM and rave ESB. No one is stupid for liking a movie. I just was wonding why it is everyone's favorite and it made the least amount of ticket sales.
     
  5. DantSolo

    DantSolo Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Reasons why ESB is GREAT:

    1- character development.

    2- Han and Leia.

    3: the shocking Vader is Luke's father revelation.

    4: the tremendous cliffhanger ending that left you wanting more...NOW!!

    When ESB came out I was 10...and I was allowed to see the movie one time. When TPM came out I was an adult...and I went to see it 9 times.
     
  6. Lord_Alved_Pepom

    Lord_Alved_Pepom Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 29, 2005


    Alot of ticket sales=Good movie?



    Oh young Padawan, much to learn.
     
  7. jedi_master_ousley

    jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2002
  8. dooku-ca-choo

    dooku-ca-choo Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2004
    In my view TESB is tied for first among Star Wars films... it's also tied for last. ;)
     
  9. Warrior_of_Mandalore

    Warrior_of_Mandalore Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2003
    What you have to keep in mind is that people didn't expect ESB to be good. Sequels generally aren't good (with the exceptions of Aliens and Godfather II) and everyone thought it was just another sequel. TPM was the 1st SW movie in 16 years, and was extremely built up in the media and product tie-ins. Everyone expected it to be good. Most of the money made by TPM was made on the first couple of days, when news of its crappiness had not yet spread. Titanic made more money than Star Wars, but do you think it's a better movie? Since you're posting here I doubt it.

    And your complaint list is pretty nitpicky. What was wrong with the Wampa? It was better than Jar-Jar. What's wrong with the Leia/Luke kiss? Why do battle scenes have to be at the end? Hiding in the asteroids led to Han/Leia character development. If you don't like the Yoda scenes, then you obviously don't like the philosophy of the Jedi and the development of Luke's character. The ending may not have been as conclusive as other SW movies, but it was a very emotionally powerful ending.

    Warrior_of_Mandalore Strikes Again!
     
  10. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    One thing i know is that a trashy movie doesnt become one of the all time highest grossing films of all time.
     
  11. Leias_Lipgloss

    Leias_Lipgloss Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2004
    Basically, I love it for many reasons you don't:

    Your Reasons Why It's Not the Best
    -The Wampa
    -Leia Kisses Luke
    -Battle at the Beginning as Opposed to at the End
    -Hiding in the Astroid
    -Some Yoda Scenes Drag On
    -No Ending

    My Reasons Why It's the Best
    -The Wampa
    You get to see more of the Force and Luke's increased knowledge of it. How many of us, after seeing Luke retrieve his lightsaber in the Wampa Lair, tried to use the Force to do the very same thing - admit it :) Instead of telling you what the Force can do this scene shows it.

    -Leia Kisses Luke
    The love triangle is awesome and allows for great character development. I adore that scene when Leia kisses Luke to make Han jealous. The reactions of Chewie and C3P0 are priceless.

    -Battle at the Beginning as Opposed to at the End
    Starts with a bang and shows you the Empire means business. Puts our heroes in peril and sets the film in motion.

    -Hiding in the Astroid
    The asteroid chase rocks and The Kiss rocks even harder. Okay, no pun intended. Thank God for that Asteroid getting Han and Leia together. There would be no I love you, I know without the Asteroid sequence.

    -Some Yoda Scenes Drag On
    TFN probably wouldn't exist without Yoda explaining the Force so much in ESB

    -No Ending
    Greatest cliffhanger EVER. I had to wait 3 torturous years to find out what happened and it was worth it. Han being frozen and Vader being Luke's father just about scarred me for life.

     
  12. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    ousley, is all you do go to threads and find ancient threads relating to the same topic and put up the link. It seems you do that on several threads.

    very resourceful of you
     
  13. BarbequedMaceWindu

    BarbequedMaceWindu Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2005
    ESB is great because it is non stop goodness from beginning to end. You mention the Hoth battle at the beginning as though it were the only thing in the movie. All the other movies have slow parts but ESB doesn't.

    As for the gross, TPM had 16 years of wait and build up. The re-releases of the OT in 1997 also helped the build to TPM.

    Home video rental was becoming a huge thing in 1980.

    In 1977, ANH was marketed as STAR WARS, while this one was marketed as TESB, and the TPM was marketed as STAR WARS Episode I The Phantom Menace. Don't underestimate the power of the name STAR WARS.

    And, of course, inflation. You can use the Consumer Price Index to adjust the gross of the ESB.
     
  14. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Good point Leias_Lipgloss, thanks for being detailed. I just thought/think there are some people out there who like it because of what i said in the opening post.
     
  15. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    BBQ Mace, true about inflation. I'm not sure if my $ is adjusted. But still, ANH made like $460 and ROTJ $309, so inflation or not, it didnt do as well as the others.
     
  16. jedi_master_ousley

    jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2002
    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn posted on 6/22/05 4:46pm
    ousley, is all you do go to threads and find ancient threads relating to the same topic and put up the link. It seems you do that on several threads.

    very resourceful of you
    [hr][/blockquote] No, I just enjoy helping people out. :)

    ESB is a great film because of the emotional impact it puts on the viewer. It doesn't follow the same general pattern as the rest of the films (except ROTS), so it's also a break from the norm for many fans. It feels like a whole different adventure because of the setup. The emotional impact is the most important thing, though. That impact has only been heightened exponentially since ROTS came out.

    I still like ROTJ better than ESB, but I still consider ESB to be a great film.
     
  17. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Yea, it is definately a wonderful film. But I just dont see it as a clear-cut dominate as do many. Its just that the ESB-lovers are usually the TPM-haters. I really enjoyed TPM and i think its one of the SW movies you can actually watch a few times and not get bored with its repetitiveness. probably becuse it spends time establishing the Republic and the Jedi order and it was cool to see it after watching the OT 1000 times from 83-99.
     
  18. Jandekian_Overlord

    Jandekian_Overlord Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2005
    I find it highly ironic that the most Zahn-ish of the films is considered the best amongst "die-hard" fanatics.

    Me, personally, I dig A New Hope a hell of a lot more. This, of course, is an opinion--nothing more, and certainly nothing less.
     
  19. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Jandekian, I'm soley a movie guy and dont get too wrapped up in the published realm of star wars. how is ESB like Zahn's books?
     
  20. DS615

    DS615 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2003
    This means nothing.
    You havent adjusted the totals, just took them at face value.
    Number of tickets sold is the only real marker, but no one tracks that.

    Let's say I show ESB at my theater, and you show TPM at yours.
    You sell $100 worth of tickets at $10 each.
    I sell $64 worth of tickets at $2 each.

    You made more money, but guess which one is more popular?

     
  21. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    THanks for the economics lesson Mr.DS615, but i understand inflation. if you would read more than just the first post you see how these things develop and that the inflation item was discussed.
     
  22. Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn

    Darth_Qui_Gon_Jinn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Top Grossing Movies of All Time (adjusted)
    Left Column, actual. Right Column, adjusted
    1 Gone With the Wind 1939 $198.6 $919.8
    2 Star Wars 1977 $461.0 $798.0
    3 The Sound of Music 1965 $158.7 $638.0
    4 E.T. 1982 $399.8 $600.7
    5 Titanic 1997 $600.7 $600.7
    6 The Ten Commandments 1956 $65.5 $586.9
    7 Jaws 1975 $260.0 $573.8
    8 Doctor Zhivago 1965 $111.7 $542.5
    9 The Jungle Book 1967 $135.5 $485.3
    10 Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs 1937 $184.9 $476.3
    11 Ben-Hur 1959 $70.0 $470.6
    12 101 Dalmatians 1961 $152.6 $459.8
    13 The Empire Strikes Back 1980 $290.2 $431.7
    14 Return of the Jedi 1983 $309.1 $413.8


    Now throw in TPM, AOTC, and ROTS
    TPM - $431 million
    AOTC - $310 million
    ROTS - $347 million (to date)
     
  23. Sith-Jedi-Master

    Sith-Jedi-Master Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Of course it has it errors...but it is reguarded at the best start war movie ever... :)
     
  24. RurouniKJS

    RurouniKJS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 4, 2005
    ESB is great because:

    1. it flips the script. The big battle comes in the 2nd act and completely subverts our expectations. But in a good way.

    2. the asteroid field. No CG, yet this deadly chase is more fun and impressive than the AOTC version filmed 22 years later. Part of it was that it was brand-new and not a rehash. Great music, too.

    3. Leia kisses Luke. And Han. And Han again. The triangle, creepy though it may be now, was great fun to watch in 1980. And yeah, the reactions of everyone in the hospital room to Leia's audacity are GOLDEN: Luke trying not to be smug, Han trying not to show he's jealous, 3PO skittering up for a closer look, Chewie muttering uncomfortably...there's more genuine humor here than in a half-dozen of Jar Jar's antics.

    4. Yoda. Maybe it's because I was 9 when I saw him, but darn if that muppet doesn't look 19 times better (one for each year) than the TPM version. And looks more real than the CG version, too. And his wisdom echoes past Luke and into our lives.

    Think about it. Along with the Wampa scene, Yoda is the one who shows us that the Force is for real and useful for more than choking cheeky admirals and making one-in-a-million shots.

    5. that flipped script again. Instead of tacking on another space battle, Lucas keeps things close and personal with a lightsaber duel that obliterates the ANH one and still packs more drama than nearly all the rest. And then after he's beaten and maimed the main hero (scant minutes after freezing and tossing the other hero to Boba Fett), he shows us JUST how personal this climax really is. Then he throws the hero down a bottomless pit with no hope of an unexpected last-minute rescue. THEN he throws the WHOLE remaining cast of heroes into a hopeless situation, with the last-minute save coming from the littlest Rebel.

    Simply put, ESB has more DRAMA than the other films. And drama is what film is all about.
     
  25. DS615

    DS615 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2003
    I did. It isn't.

    It changes nothing.
    You're still not accounting for things like advertising, number of theaters, increased number of movie goers.

    Bottom line: Using money as the sole means of a films success is absurd.



     
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