What's So Great About ESB?

It a great movie, it turns things upside down, it has the main battle at the start of the movie and has a downbeat ending with nothing resolved, and for all purposes the "bad" guys win, and yet has such a simple plot,yet so different from the original Star Wars,

It had all the main contributors at the top of their game,and the characters were taken to another level,and had/has one of the greatest twists in film history(not much for me will top 1980 in the cinema watching Empire when Vader tells Luke "I am your your father" the shock I had just sitting there at the time was unbeatable).

 

IMO, noone wins in this movie. The heroes obviously fail in what they do, but so do the Sith. They never succeed in capturing, turning or killing Luke.
It's a downer for everybody.



Darth Vader - he's impressive
/LM

 

Had TPM come out first, it probably would have made the same amount of money in the theatres. People didn't go to movies over and over back then as much, and Star Wars, although beloved, had not become the cult phenomenon it is today. I like both movies, but I like ESB better because of the Vader fight scene, Yoda's teaching, and because of the emotion of the film. TPM is great action, but it didn't grab me emotionally, nor inspire me philosophically. It sets everything up, the way it should, but it is not a great movie. It's an introduction to a trilogy.

 

The question is though, with the amount of people who thought TPM and AOTC were underpar compared to the rest of the Star Wars saga, would a new watcher even want to see the rest of the saga if they were uninterested in the first two?

My neice and all of her friends got hooked onto Star Wars because of TPM. Then they'll grow up and a ridiculous amount of nostalgia will be attached to it and it too will become a masterpiece. It's just how these things go.

I don't think ESB is the best. It's the most technical film and the least romantic (as in art, not romance). I like romanticisms in my movies. I still love ESB naturally, it's just not my fav.
I see a lot of "Well RotJ was my fav, but then I grew up (emphasis mine) and discovered ESB."
While that's nifty (and a not subtle way of parading ESB and one's own maturity and 'refined tastes') for me it was reverse. When I was young, it was all about ESB. Then I grew up and started noticing more and more of RotJ's subtleties and inner story. It knocked ESB comfortably away.
Out of all the films, I'd say RotS has the best mix of what makes Star Wars Star Wars. Star Wars is more than just mega-awesome cool darkness ESB that everyone sems to be watching, and I think the saga as a whole should reflect that.

 

Esb is a great part of the OT but without the others it would be nothing, as all the movies. I know many times in these forums I've been saying, Esb was my fav but the whole 6 make it a whole and really they couldn't exist without each other.

 

excuse me? i know this is not at anyone specifically, but i will argue this. i didnt see clerks for the first time until the late 90s. i saw ESB in the 80s on video. i think ROTJ was my fave until the early 90s, and my tastes began to change. ewoks werent cute or cuddly anymore. just pure action (final space battle) was no longer enough to satisfy me. the acting struck me as being awful in places. and along with realizing the imperfections on ANH, and then it hit me, ESB is incredible. the best of the OT (and now i can say the best of all 6). and i assure you, this was before i ever saw clerks (i dont even remember that part of clerks).

i've gone into this before but here's a quick summary of the qualities that put ESB to the top of my SW list:
acting, best in SW (the only SW movie which actually has GOOD acting overall)
direction & writing, best
cinematography, best
chemistry, best
plot, best
characters (in addition to ANH, we got boba, lando, yoda), best
the quantity of battles/fighting was less than 4 & 6, but the quality was superior to both
the asteroid chase
"i know"
invasion of Hoth
"I am your father."
"that is why you fail."
Luke vs. Vader
etc., etc., etc.


next time you watch it, watch for these things.

 

The Empire Strikes Back is an absolutely flawless piece of filmmaking. I can only imagine how people felt watching it for the first time in 1980. You get the distinct impression that Lucas, Kasden, Kirschner, McQuarrie, Williams et al were film gods back then; capable of anything. What an absolutely glorious fusion of spectacle and drama. Everything about it blows my mind: the punchy scripting, the mythological motifs, the acting (especially Yoda), the production design, the visual effects, the scoring, the photography. This film has NO EQUAL in the Star Wars canon. And I say all of this as a firm prequel lover.

 

Here's my reasons (no particular order):

1. Boba Fett
2. Outrageously good music in the movie.
3. The emotian with Han getting encased in carbonite, Darth Vader revealing he's Luke's father, Han and Leia's romance and Lando's betrayl.
4. As someone else said above, character developement.

There are also probably more reasons that I can't think of at the moment...

 

Whenever you are comparing stats that are in different time periods, there are somethings you have to consider.

For one, 1 ticket in 1999 cost a LOT more then 1 ticket did in 1980. You have to make sure that the gross earnings reports take that into consideration.

Also, in general, there were a lot more movie-goers in 1999 then in 1980. That obviously makes for more movie tickets sold.

Also, something TPM has that ESB didnt is that it was the end of a long time of non-SW. It had only been 3 years since the last SW movie when ESB came out, where as with TPM, it was 16 years. With that, a new generation was exposed to the Star Wars universe, and a new interest came out. That could also account for more sales.

 

^
exactly. most people think that Titanic is the most popular movie ever, but its not. in terms of ticket sales, Gone With the Wind is tops. however, ANH is second. and TPM is 19.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

PS: i forgot to mention in my earlier post that ESB also had the first Imperial March theme.

 

What ISN'T great about Empire? LOL

Here are my reasons Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie, in no particular order:

-bucked convention. The bad guys win.
-the Imperial March is introduced.
-first look at the Emperor (even if it wasn't originally Ian MacDiarmid).
-nominated for multiple Oscars.
-the best lie that turned out not to be a lie ever, Vader's revelation to Luke.
-Luke sees himself in Vader's mask in the cave: brilliant foreshadowing.
-Do. Or do not. There is no try. We finally get a serious dose of Jedi philosophy.
-best overall plot out of all 6.
-Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford pull off their cheesy dialogue, unlike Hayden and Natalie.
-no stupid "yippieeees".
-Leia hears Luke's calling out to her....foreshadowing that she is his sister, and strong in force.
-"I love you!"
-"I know."
-Lando trying to playerhate on Han.
-Han and Leia stranded in the Falcon for what was probably a few months. You know they did it.
-AT-ATs. nuff said.
-Vader freezes Han in Carbonite just to test to see if it works. Thats cold.
-no Skeletor...excuse me....Moff Tarkin to get in Vader's way.
-Luke chooses death before turning to the dark side...unlike Anakin.

 

colivo posted:

3. Han Solo and Princess Leia are at their best in the trilogy: The one liners they trade off through the movie are classic. They are not cheesy like Padme & Anakin, they are funny, witty, and it shows the real chemistry between them.

This is sooo true! The love story in the prequels at times (especially AOTC), left me wanting to scratch my nails across a blackboard. It was too lovey doveyish for my tastes.

Actually, I am disappointed that Han and Leia are portrayed as officially "boyfriend/girlfriend," or however you want to say it, in ROTJ. ESB, with all the angst and suppressed sexual tension, is juicier in my opinion!

Look how comfortable Leia is with Han in ROTJ during the scene in which 3PO recounts their adventures to the Ewoks. She is leaning into him with her head on his shoulder with such a content look on her face! Not once in ROTJ is their an argument between them. Even when Han gets kind of jealous and he says, "Could you tell Luke??!" when he comes upon Luke and Leia talking, he apologizes AND she says, "Hold me!" In ESB, Han would NOT have apologized AND Leia would have had a flippant remark. Don't get me wrong...I love them as a couple, but for Han having been in carbonite for about a year, they are awfully comfortable with each other.

I do always crack up when Wicket (I think it's Wicket ) follows suit, and he his like purring at Han's leg!

"Heart"

 

there is also the obvious reason: movie tickets cost 4 dollars for an adult in 1980, and cost well over 8 bucks typically now. OF COURSE TPM made more money, because theatres charged more money! DUH!

 

Anyway, back on topic.

For me, ESB is my favourite. The darkness of the film which is surrounded by great and vibrant visuals never fails to impress.

It is really Vader's film. The one liners and interactions are fantastic and he has been given the most focus in some repects to develop the ultimate villian persona.

The other characters are great, the way the rebels are constantly running away from the Empire from start to finish just makes this a fantastic film, and thanks to Han and Vader a very entertaining ride.

For me the ultimate classic.

 

absolutely flawless piece of filmmaking

"That armor's too strong for blasters!"
Then we see this is in fact, true.
Trip walker, shoot it, blow it up. Wha-?

Then you have the ordeal of them walking around unprotected in a space slug.

"Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?"

Nope. ESB has flaws as well just like anything else on earth. It's dangerous to think of something as perfect I'd say.

 

ESB is flawed, it is imperfect and it is the best film of the saga, maybe even the best film of the entire 80's (with respect to Raging Bull). For me it always came down to Yoda. From the moment he is revealed as the great master in his cave, there is a dignity and aura to the character that is simply astounding when you consider that he is a puppet. A puppet! When he breaks it all down to Luke about the force ("Luminous beings are we...") the mythology and mysticism of Star Wars all seems to come together, and then that ship comes out of the water in one of the most impressive on-screen displays of the force in any film.

 

*best sets!! (look at all the detail inthe hoth base.

 

For me it was few things mostly already mentioned but these are mine. First and formeost The AT-AT walker. I mean come on have you ever seen such a great vehicle. Now the usual the cliffhanger, the han and leia romnce. han solo getting made into a block of carbonite. Yoda's teachings "do or do not, there is no try."

 

And much of Luke's dialogue after he meets Yoda. People carp on Anakin whining in AOTC, and, by way of proving ESB's superiority to ANH, claim that Luke whines in ANH but not in ESB. Excuse me? He whines almost twice as much! It's not until ROTJ that he leaves off whining.

Also, there's the plot device of bringing Chewie and Leia into the carbon-freezing chamber along with Han. Even Kersh realized that it was illogical, that it was just in there because it made for a big, dramatic scene. Yet somehow that plot device is forgivable while similar or lesser plot devices in the PT are dissected and practically built up into scandals.

I'd say so too. ESB is my favorite and I think it is the best, but it has flaws, and not just a few.

 

The premise of this entire thread is flawed. More people saw The Empire Strikes Back in the theater than TPM.

When you adjust ticket prices for inflation, ESB is number 12, TPM is 19.

But really, why does that matter?

I hate Gone with the Wind, and it sold the most tickets of all time.

ESB is awesome. That's all I'm going to say.

 

It left you hanging.

If you see them nowadays, you just pop in ROTJ and bang, there it is.

I, as many of you were young in 1980 (I was 5) and had to wait 3 years for the next one.

I remember some kid showing up to school with the ROTJ graphic novel a month or two before release, I remember saying "Holy crap!... is that the whole thing? Can I see it?"

All I did was check out the begining, to see what happens to Han.

EDIT : And it really is non stop good action and story the whole time.

 

I think the reason Empire is so appealing to most people is the overall evil nature and suspense of it all.

 

best sets!! (look at all the detail inthe hoth base.

Eh... I like Naboo much better than Hoth, especially the lakeside retreat. The veranda was also breathtaking. The senate was awesome. Echo base was very well-design of course.
Cloud City pre SE I was never much of a fan of. I mean, even before the new-fangled CG stuff came out. It felt very closed-in and sterile instead of beutiful. The carbon-freezing chamber was excellent. I'd say that and the Star Destroyer bridge are the best examples of a PT-like set in the OT. Do what you can with set, let SFX fill in the rest.
Jabba's palace was also highly detailed and painstakingly constructed as was the sail barge. As was the Throne Room and General's Quarters in RotJ and RotS respectively.
So, I don't think best sets is nearly as clear a win as some other categories might be.

 

"That armor's too strong for blasters!"
Then we see this is in fact, true.
Trip walker, shoot it, blow it up. Wha-?

Then you have the ordeal of them walking around unprotected in a space slug.

What about Luke hanging upside down inside the Wampa?s cave, his feet encased in ice? I mean, how did the Wampa manage to get a fully-grown man into that position to begin with? Apart from the more immediate physical logistics, the Wampa does not appear to be dexterous enough to perform the complex series of maneuvers that would undoubtedly be required in order to get Luke into that arrangement in the first place. Plausibility aside, the shot in question is an indelible image, so I am able to overlook such logical errors.

"Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?"

That is my candidate for the most poorly delivered line in the six-film cycle. The line itself is not inherently bad, but with all due respect I must say that the actor?s delivery is absolutely atrocious. Of course, there is also "Good - Our first catch of the day," which isn?t a bad line either, but is delivered in a rather banal manner.

Nope. ESB has flaws as well just like anything else on earth. It's dangerous to think of something as perfect I'd say.

I don?t know of many films that could be considered "perfect," although there are a great many film which contain perfection.

And much of Luke's dialogue after he meets Yoda. People carp on Anakin whining in AOTC, and, by way of proving ESB's superiority to ANH, claim that Luke whines in ANH but not in ESB. Excuse me? He whines almost twice as much! It's not until ROTJ that he leaves off whining.

You make some good points, Shelley (although someone once tried to tell me that the degree to which Luke whined in ANH was blown out of proportion, and that the only instance in which the character did so was in the infamous "Toshi Station" bit ? uh, huh). I think Luke?s whining in "The Empire Strikes Back" reaches its nadir when he is becoming increasingly impatient in Yoda?s hut on Dagobah. "Empire" is without question my favorite of the six films, and yet I must concede that the picture is hardly 'peerless,' and is frequently given a free pass, often-times exonerated from the sort of critical ire that is directed towards the surrounding installments to varying degrees. In all honesty, one could theoretically find fault in any movie if they are willing enough to do so.

Eh... I like Naboo much better than Hoth, especially the lakeside retreat. The veranda was also breathtaking.

I enjoy both environments for quite different reasons, as they are each positioned in order to suggest something rather particular in each case.

The senate was awesome. Echo base was very well-design of course.

Yes, I agree.

Cloud City pre SE I was never much of a fan of. I mean, even before the new-fangled CG stuff came out. It felt very closed-in and sterile instead of beutiful.

I quite like the exterior of Bespin, and yet the Cloud City interiors are fairly standard.

The carbon-freezing chamber was excellent. I'd say that and the Star Destroyer bridge are the best examples of a PT-like set in the OT. Do what you can with set, let SFX fill in the rest.

The carbon-freezing chamber is one of the most visually arresting set pieces in any of the six films ? the Stygian vision of Mustafar in ROTS is intended to correspond with the crimson hues which emanate from this particular set in "Empire," I believe (in addition to some of the architectural constructs that occupy the various environments in which ESB's climactic duel between Vader and Luke occurs). The Star Destroyer bridge is also a beautifully designed set, as are the various environments on Dagobah, which to my mind are the most evocative in the saga.

Jabba's palace was also highly detailed and painstakingly constructed as was the sail barge.

I am quite aware of the fact that the Tatooine segment of "Jedi" is not universally well-regarded, and yet I love the visual d

 

like how about dagabough? that wasnt outdoors. THe medical frigate (however u spell it) the medical room wit bacta tank, control room, the ceiling work on the star destroyers is amazing.

Oh i made a diorama of jabba's throne room, heres a link. as of last month i own every POTF saga figure that was part of jabbas palace.

http://www.thejawa.net/njswcc/index.php?topic=1313.0