What's so great about Irvin Kirshner???

Okay, to give credit where credit is due, he did an amazing job with TESB. But for some SW fans to say that he should be in enshrined in some directorial hall of fame or, even worse, brought back to direct more SW movies, is rediculous. Look did he create the characters? Did he write the script? Did he even create Star Wars? No, no, and no. He and GL were at the right place and the right time. But I'm not ready to say he's this phenomenal director based on the track record of one film. A director usually racks up an impressive resume before the acolades start rolling in. Let's see, off the top of my head there was ESB, Robocop 2 (which stunk half a dozen ways), and............what? You see what I mean? He did a good job on TESB, but based on the script and overall theme, it still would have been fine movie with any director, IMO. Kirshner contibuted wonderfully to the Star Wars universe, much like Timothy Zahn, A.C. Crispin, Kevin J. Anderson, and the late Brian Daley. But, like those other people, I'm not ready to say he is Star Wars. That title still belongs to one man.









OK, Kirshner fans. Take your best shot.

 

Ok, here it goes... If I am wrong, then someone please correct me. Empire would NOT be the movie it was if George had his way. Kirshner didnt do what everyone else does now, give in to whatever George wants. Kirshner stuck to what he wanted to see and did his job, direct the movie. I remember seeing an interview with Gary Kurtz on IGN I believe and he said that with the prequels, its all whatever George wants. No one has the balls to say, "No, George that wont work." That didnt happen during the original trilogy. Of course, Marquand really didnt do anything during Jedi from what I hear. Dont get me wrong, I am not hating on George or his directing abilities. I am merely restating the facts as I know them. Again, if anyone knows differently, please clear the air here as I dont want to spread dirty rumors and false stories. Thank you.
Of course, if your gonna say kirshner is great, you gotta give props to Kasden.

Update.. I found the interview that I mentioned. Here is the little piece that led me to my post above..


IGNFF: It was never George's intention to direct Empire?

KURTZ: No, no. After Star Wars, he didn't really want to direct the others. I think he was unhappy that I ? I'm the one that recommended Kershner, and had worked with him before. I think he was a good choice for Empire, I think he worked really well, but he wasn't the kind of director... George, I think, had in the back of his mind that the director was a sort of stand-in ? that he could phone him up every night and tell him what to do and kind of direct vicariously over the telephone. That never happened. Kershner's not that kind of director, and even when George showed up a couple of times on the set, he found that it wasn't easy to maneuver Kershner into doing what he would have done.

So, on Jedi, he was determined to find a director who was easy to control, basically, and he did. And that was the result, basically ? the film was sort of one that George might have directed if he had directed it himself... but maybe not, because it goes through so many interim bits, that if he had directed it probably would have been quite different.


Here is the link to the whole interview. http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/376/376873p1.html

 

Well, I hope there is more proof out there besides Gary Kurtz.

 

Kirshner was an iconic producer in Hollywood ala Zanuck, Goldwyn, and Mayer. Thats to say a big budget movie guy.

 

Well, I hope there is more proof out there besides Gary Kurtz

There is - there's The Empire Strikes Back, it's a great movie and he directed it.

I'm not aware of anyone crediting SW's greatness to Kershner. SW is great because Lucas directed ANH, because Kurtz produced it, because Kershner directed ESB, beacause Kasdan contributed greatly, because Dykstra made the FX work etc.

ESB is great because of a terrific collaboration.

g

 

Simply put: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the greatest films ever made, due in no small part to Irvin Kirshner's visionary and epic style. Watching Luke and Vader's light saber duel in Cloud City still gives me chills. Such amazing work with shadows, lighting and sound should be considered a mandatory learning experience for all fresh-faced film students.

If Mr. Kirshner had done nothing else in his important and distinguished career, this film would still considered by critics and moviegoers alike to be one of the most valuable and imaginative contributions to American Cinema.

When I think of ESB and it's success, I think of the only two people that made it possible:

Irvin Kirshner and Gary Kurtz, Those two together made the greatest movie of all time!

 

But if those two didn't get the story from GL then it wouldn't even had happened.

I'm so sick of reading that ESB was good because GL wasn't involved with it. Please! If you know anything about GL, it's that he's involved with just about every aspect of ESB from the script down to the designs.

 

George had VETO power period, ESB back is how he wanted it. George deserves as much credit as anyone.

 

I do agree with the people that say that if it weren't for Irvin and Gary Kurtz ESB wouldn't be what it is today. But I think that George Lucas also deserves a lot of credit.

Lucas was the deciding factor for chosing Vader to be Luke's father. If I remember correctly Kurtz disliked the idea for that.

And if it were not for that decision the prequels would not have been made.

 

"Simply put: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the greatest films ever made"

Whoa. No it is not. It's certainly my personal favorite film, but no one who takes cinema seriously, in the vein you're talking about, would even have ESB on their radar. ANH, maybe, because of its revolutionary impact.

"due in no small part to Irvin Kirshner's visionary and epic style."

Give Kirshner his credit, but to not credit Lucas as a visionary when it comes to SW is nothing short of denial. And the true cinema connoisseurs you refer to later would most certainly credit him.

"...this film would still considered by critics and moviegoers alike to be one of the most valuable and imaginative contributions to American Cinema. "

Surely this is hyperbole... right?

"When I think of ESB and it's success, I think of the only two people that made it possible "

The only two, huh? You're willing to put your name on that argument?

"Those two together made the greatest movie of all time! "







"I remember seeing an interview with Gary Kurtz on IGN I believe and he said that with the prequels, its all whatever George wants. No one has the balls to say, "No, George that wont work.""


Yeah, and since Kurtz hasn't been on the set, I'll take his word for it because...


"That didnt happen during the original trilogy. "

Sure. Again, I'm to believe this, why? My own impression of Lucas, both today and in his younger years, is that he is not a person who hands creative control to others on his films. The idea that he was forced into doing things by Kurtz or anyone else, makes me laugh.

 

"it still would have been fine movie with any director, IMO."

And yet, Lucas specifically picked him - and told him he wanted ESB to be better than Star Wars. Does Lucas' opinion not count for anything anymore?

 

Yeah, GL is such a crummy director.

Can you really say that ANH is worse than SW? I'd take ANH over ESB any day of the week, and again on Tuesday.

 

Neither I nor Lucas stated anything about which film was better. Lucas' comment to Irvin was made before ESB was made.

 

You guys also gotta remember the story of when George saw the first rough cut of ESB, he went balistic and charged everyone with "trying to destroy my movie!" and afterwards ripped the film from the editors and locked himself in the editing suite for three days and re-cut the whole thing from scratch.

If that ain't hands on and in control, I don't know what is.

 

Say what?!? I've never heard that at all. PPOR.

(I wonder if you are simply referring to the "end" of ESB, which was redone at great expense just after filming had completed. This is discussed in the Annotated Screenplays, as well as on the Def. Col. LD.)

 

this is pathetic.



What's so great about Irvin Kirshner???

he directed a classic movie. and you?

 

Kirshner did a great job with the directing, no doubts about that.

But ESB wouldn't have been totally different without him though. ESB had a powerful script to begin with.

 

Nobody is saying that ESB is Kershner's baby and noone else's.

It is a fact that Lucas is the mastermind behind the whole saga, and that he got help from talented producers and script writers on the OT.

So Kershner was just one man in a much larger creative team.

That said, when it comes to shooting a scene, directing actors, making the characters and situations exist, it is the director who takes control, allowing the script to come alive.

And that particular work, Kershner did remarkably well.

One simple exemple : see how he films Vader and makes him impressive in every single shot he's in.
He uses the light on the mask, the angle from which he films him, everything to make the dark lord more menacing. In ANH and ROTJ Vader looks just like what he is : a tall guy in black disguise on a movie set.

That is true for all the other characters, from Han to Imperial officers.

Many OT actors said that Kershner took a lot of time discussing their characters' motivations with them. He is the one who spent the most time with actors, and I think it is obvious when you see all 5 films.
Of course it is not Kershner alone : the script was also more actor-friendly than any other sw script (it still had it's load of cheese though), and the music proved to be very powerful too, helping characters a lot (especially Vader, Solo, Yoda and Leia). But in the end Kershner's influence on the movie is very important. And I'd even say that he helped the whole sw myth : Once again, the Vader everyone knows, loves and fears is Kershner's Vader, with williams' imperial march on it. Same for Yoda.

ANH introduced the characters and made them cool. ESB made them eternal.

That said, I think the directing in ANH was good and quite original, and there are some scenes in AOTC which I like a lot : especially the tatooine scenes (Ani and Padme shadows against the Lars homestead for exemple, and the whole tatooine sequence).

Other than that, Kershner did the best directing job on a SW movie to date IMHO.

One more thing : Lucas is the mastermind behind ESB as well as behind any other starwars movie, but it has been reported, and confirmed by Lucas himself that he was less present on the set for ESB than for any other SW movie.
So Kershner the director really had a special influence on the making of ESB.

 

Kersh was a tremendous contributor to the SW Saga. I certainly don't believe he deserves sole credit for the success of the Saga or even ESB on its own, just as no-one deserves sole credit for SW, but he definitely played an important part.

Now cut out baiting each other and maybe we can get a decent discussion about this.

 

The Empire strikes Back is the best Star Wars film ever Attack Of The Clones came close but still fell short.
Empire was dark new and fresh what did we get in Jedi another death star how lame ever more powerful then the first it would need to be to take on those teddy bears.
Dont get me wrong I enjoyed rotj however esb was better.

 

"I remember seeing an interview with Gary Kurtz on IGN I believe and he said that with the prequels, its all whatever George wants. No one has the balls to say, "No, George that wont work.""


Yeah, and since Kurtz hasn't been on the set, I'll take his word for it because...


Did you not read the interview? I think Kurtz knows how Lucas is. I dont think he would have to be on the set to know how things go with the prequels. I doubt George is going to change his style that much from then and now.

Oh and George wrote the story of ESB, but the screenplay was by bracket and kasden. Thats not to say George didnt have any say in it, but you gotta give credit where its do.

 

Kirshner was great because he wasn't GL's b@#$h (unlike the ROTJ guy) he stuck to his guns and made a great SW movie, the last that had more than one level. ESB was great because of what Kirshner did. If you want to criticize his other work also look at the movies Lucas has directed, except for Amer. Graf. and ANH, they all suck story wise, yes they are enjoyable, but only on one level. Even AG had rewrites to make the characters better.

 

Empire is beautifully photographed because of the cinematographer. Lucas hired him even before he hired Kershner. He wanted him for Star Wars but couldn't get him. Lucas paid his own money, something unprecedented and very scary, allowing the work to be done without studio interference. Lucas wrote the movie, Kasdan polished the dialogue, mainly Han/Leia. The screen credits don't reflect what happened. Kasdan is the first person to say so. Kershner should be given credit for getting a subtle performance out of Carrie Fisher, no small trick. He contributed several nice touches, but the vast overall credit for Empire's quality has to go to Lucas. He made it all happen, then he made it all "work" as a movie with his skilled editing, which is where movies live or die, and where the prequels have suffered the most.

 

@osum23
No, Lucas wrote the script. Brackett's version wasn't used and Kasdan only polished what Lucas wrote, just like in RotJ.

And why should someone question Lucas, if everything he wants is doable?
It's his story after all.
ESB and ROTJ were different, because he didn't direct them. Kershner wanted the freedom to decide what should be done or he wouldn't have made the movie.
Like in ESB, the director (in this case Lucas) can decide what to do, especially if you consider that he also wrote the story and script.

The only difference is that back in the days the author didn't always agree with the director and vice versa, because they were different people.


Actually Marquand didn't always do what Lucas wanted.
Sure, they agreed most of the time, but Lucas let him decide things, if they disagreed. Just like in ESB with Kershner.