What's the dumbest reason you've heard for someone hating AOTC?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by seasider, Aug 7, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Anyway, Mr. Duck-and-Run, how about you actually try refuting some the excellent arguments that have been put forth? Arguing with you is a frustrating exercise because you just keep asking questions, trying to force us to play the game by your rules. Rather than actually refuting our arguments with a substantial argument of your own, you take a few cheap shots, feign ignorance and force us to explain ourselves again, and then run for the hills. It's petty and annoying at best.
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    hey, don't dis on the w-w-waterboy!
    not every movie out there has to be profound to be good... or at least funny! (of course, that's just my opinion)


    So this works for The Waterboy but not Star Wars? You know, the more I try to figure you bashers out the more baffled I get.
  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    in other words, you dont have an answer for us as to what you consider to be this "formula" that lucas used for the OT and now has been proven as a FACT to be working for the PT.

    and you call ME duck and run?
  4. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    BANNED, Durwood, et al.:

    I submitted that list of arguably bad movies only to show that all films grossing a high dollar are not necessarily held as high art. While BANNED considers that because Robin Williams is a "genius", any film he appears in must be beyond reproach, I doubt that many in this forum feel the same. That said, I happen to like Mrs. Doubtfire, as I like most of the movies I listed; I offer them up only as an example of low art--even publically disdained art--netting handsome returns.

    For the record, in case you haven't seen evidence of this in other threads, I love AOTC deeply. But the notion that big money = great movie bothers me.
  5. zeekveerko Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    durwood - i'm not a basher. i have some opinions about attack of the clones, but if i didn't like the movie i wouldn't spend the time to consider how it could have been better, and ponder on its weaker points.

    and as for the waterboy comment, yes, i do hold movies with serious dramatic elements and political themes to a higher standard than i do simple comedy flicks that aim merely to make us laugh. i like to think that a movie made by george lucas can be as good, in my opinion, as a new hope. in many cases directors get better as they progress, so by my reasoning, lucas could possibly have outdone himself, but i don't think he has.
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    To Duck and Run:

    Look, I'm tired of playing this game by your rules! We set up an argument and you just hen peck us to death with endless petty questions, forcing us to repeat and continously clarify our arguments, and yet you ask more questions seeking further clarification! It's getting frustrating.

    This is your last chance, and to show my good will, I'll stoop to your level and answer a question whose answer should be so obvious that you should feel embarassed asking it.

    "What is George Lucas' proven Star Wars forumula?"

    Memorable characters, extraordinary situations, compelling and textured storylines that continue to surprise and intrigue even after repeated viewings, fantastic and imaginative environments, and impeccably paced action sequences. It's a classic tale of good vs. evil where the roles of good and evil are not so classically defined. For instance, the Jedi all but turning a blind eye to the corruption of the Republic senate but fighting for the cause of good, a conflicted youth working on the side of good but stepping into evil when it suits his purposes, Obi-Wan lying to Luke about the fate of his father, Yoda pleading with Luke not to save his friends, and the worst villian in the galaxy sacrificing himself to save his son. Finally, you have Lucas pushing the envelope of state of the art film making.

    Every film in the saga shares these qualities, and it is why Star Wars will remain the timeless classic it has always been.
  7. lordmack Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 3
    My friend said the yoda fight was stupid, I almost went berserk on him.
  8. Jenkwombat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2001
    star 3

    Actually, nowhere in my posting did I even imply that "film is not an art form." Those are words you're inserting. And yes, I did take Film Production (although it wasn't my Major). Boy, talk about being "inaccurately insulted".....

    What I said was, in essence, that just because a *viewer* of a film finds some "hidden meaning" doesn't mean it has anything to do with what the *filmmaker* set out to do. (If you find that personally insulting, then once again, you're reading something into my statement that isn't there.)

    In regards to films: If I sit down and watch 'The Sound Of Music' and come out of it thinking "that was the most moving, heart-felt Motion Picture I've ever seen on the subject of spousal abuse", does that mean that the plot or any of the images presented in 'The Sound Of Music' are, in fact, an allegory for spousal abuse? Or, does that mean I'm reading something into it that Robert Wise never even dreamt he was touching on?

    The answer, as you know, is the latter. Anyone who would watch 'The Sound Of Music' and think it was a social commentary about spousal abuse (or any other commentary, for that matter), would need his head examined.

    That's my only point.

    Unfortunately, the same "a film made in 1999 applies to reality in 1999" theory was used to attack 'The Phantom Menace'. An environment with "The Force", "lightsabers", "Gungans",
    "Death Stars", snow planets that have oxygen, "Wookiees", etc. is supposed to "comment" on today's society?

    Sorry, but that's just plain goofy.

    (And anyone who watches a film with a six-foot tall amphibious, orange, spotted reptile with yellow eyes protruding several inches above his head and with three-foot long ears, then thinks, "Wow, that's meant to demean African-Americans", is clearly out to lunch.)

    But that's where "reading something" into a film that isn't there can lead.

    Plus, just for the record, the directors of 'Invasion Of The Body Snatchers' and 'King Kong' have been quoted numerous times as saying they weren't about "Fear of Communism" and "sexual frustration", respectively, so it's not just me. Certainly, some values, fears and concerns of the day do seep into motion pictures of their day. (Atomic Radiation was a favorite subject for "mutant" movies made during the Cold War.) But, just because a horror film happens to be made in the 1950s, doesn't automatically mean Communism (another important topic in society at the time) is alluded to.

    If anyone chooses to interpret these films this way, hey, knock yourself out. No skin off my back. But it's not what the director had in mind, regardless of what Film Professors and pseudo-intellectual critics have been reading into them all these years....

    I don't know why this would be difficult to understand. Nor do I see how you're strengthening you're argument by attributing statements to me that I never made.



    And if there's anything to be gained by saying 'Men In Black II' has social meaning, then I must admit, you've lost me.


  9. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Our whole galaxy is inside a locker on an alien world! how much social meaning do you want? :)
  10. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    It's saying we need to think outside of the box if we want to get a true perspective of our existence. Or something like that.





    (Yes, I'm joking.)
  11. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    I would like to comment about the arugement on Gushers using GL vision and then someone else here said "yeah, you can use that in any film, it is the directors vision"

    Well, the truth is there is a suble diffrence. 95% of films you see in wide release are mainly a director's vision, but then they have to change a lot of it becuase the so called idiotic geniuses that do so called market research that fund the movie make them do changes because they just want the big huge first weekend BO gross. Then you see the films fall flat on their face a week later or 2.

    George Lucas had sated many times he was bitter at Hollywood for this vary reason and that is why he wanted to it on his own so the dircetor can have the creativity. This does not mean he does not take suggestions from other people, it just means he does not have to follow stupid standard hollywood formulas.

  12. robfett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2002
    star 4
    Well that Anakin kid was a little bratty.- My Mom.






  13. zeekveerko Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    jenkwombat:

    i'm no joseph campbell, so i won't even pretend to have the ability to pick apart a story such as he possesses, but i will do my best to defend my postition.

    on the subject of MIB II - if nothing else, the movie does reflect modern society's fascination with space and the conjecture of things that might dwell within its seemingly infinite reaches.

    on the subject of hidden meanings - well, i wasn't referring to hidden meanings, i'm talking about the ideas and perceptions that every artist conveys through their own work, or failing that, the reflection of the society that has influenced the filmmaker. every movie contains at least a faint glimmering of one or more of these things.

    suffice to say that i think the person who made The Sound of Music believes in the profound effects of music on the human psyche - i.e. singing your heart out to the open blue sky can be liberating. this is the social commentary i refer to. granted, i have never seen the entire movie, so i wouldn't know about spousal abuse as it pertains to this movie.

    i didn't bring up the jar jar thing, but i can see a few connections between some of his character traits (not his looks) and some brown-skinned islanders i've met in my lifetime. i don't take this to mean that lucas has a problem with islanders, as he clearly loves his gungan character. maybe he likes bob marley. don't know.

    i apologize for all rude comments in my previous post. it was my gut reaction to what i perceived as condescension in your words - "That's very nice sounding, but it has nothing to do with the reality of how and why films are made."
  14. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    thank you durwood. i appreciate you taking the time to answer. i think your assesment of the star wars formula is pretty accurate, except many elements of it are missing from AOTC in the eyes of many fans. he may have tried to do many of the things that are part of the "formula" but i and many others feel he failed with AOTC and TPM when it comes to: Memorable characters, compelling and textured storylines that continue to surprise and intrigue even after repeated viewings, and impeccably paced action sequences.

    this is where we may have to just agree to disagree. memorable characters? perhaps some supporting roles are memorable here and there, and the performance of ewan as obi wan, but important characters like anakin and padme are left to flounder, or are simply performed, written, and directed in the most pedestrian of ways.

    what you found compelling, i found to be clumsy and immature storylines that only pretend to be textured and intriguing, while they are actually pretty simple and reveal everything on the first viewing. i have never seen the stories of the OT as particularly deep, nor did they pretend to be, nor did they need to be. they were entertaining. the poorly written dialogue of the PT also helps derail this element of the formula.

    i also feel the action in AOTC especially in the end battle, was terribly paced, jumpy and had no clear narrative to tell the viewer exactly what was going on. also an action sequence like the droid factory did not serve the story. it was just action for actions sake, and IMO sloppy uninteresting action at that.

    perhaps if lucas really did stick to this formula the film would have satisfied more viewers

    you have your opinion and i have mine. i have no desire to convert you or change your mind. ive just been trying to tell you how i see it. i still hope for episode III
  15. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    It's certainly possible for a film about Aliens to be a social commentary. Look at examples in literature. The Russian Science fiction authors Boris and A. Strugatzki wrote novels about societies on different planets. But they were actually very clever. During the Soviet era where literature wasn't allowed to criticise the government they simply "invented" societies as it gave them the opportuntity to criticise the Soviet government through a fictional world. On a superficial level their novels are about Aliens but they're clearly meant to comment on existing societies.
    And anybody who has read Animal Farm knows that it's not a novel about pigs and horses.

    However this does not apply to star Wars. The funny thing is that IF Star Wars was really social commentary then it would be very damning towards the US government as the Empire would more or less represent the policies of the United states (fighting terrorists, nuking cities/planets for the "greater good") and I'm not sure you guys would really agree with that point of view. So it's better to assume SW is not social commentary.
  16. GLdoeswhathewants Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2002
    I cannot believe all these people saying that AOTC was cack. I loved it, one of the best films have i ever seen and it is by far the best star wars film, it had everything- romance, battles, suspense, tension, mystery it was just a classic and there's people bad mouthing it. There was no prblem with it being CGI. There's people saying that yoda's fight was rubbish- i thought it was one of the best scenes in cinema history. Padmes clothing was not to revaling i thought it wasnt revealing enough.
  17. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Star Wars isn't a science. There's no exact forumula Lucas has to follow to make a worthy film. You either enjoy it or you don't. And for me AOTC was the most fun I've had at the cinema in at least ten years. I don't really care if anyone disagrees.
  18. Nane_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    My friend's sister said that the film was pretty dumb(?), cause she didn't see any clones(?!)
  19. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    "My friend's sister said that the film was pretty dumb(?), cause she didn't see any clones(?!) "

    I have the exact same problem with AOTC.

    I was really looking forward to see the clones and was disappointed that there was no sign of them. I would have loved to see some guys with fake red noses and oversized shoes in the film but George Lucas let me down again.

    Still looking forward to the Special Edition. My source in Lucasfilm has informed me that Krusty the Klone will definetely be in that version
  20. I_WAS_JUST_BANNED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 1
    me:
    hmmm... who's making the assumptions here?
    considering that most of the people i know think of all but a few of these movies as utter crud (if they happen to think about them). i think it's fair to say that they are arguably (in other words, not factually) bad, especially considering that a lot of them are sequels.


    No offense, but I'd hate to meet most of the people you know if this is the case. Sounds like you hang around with a pretty boring and elitist crowd.

    Also I didn't say I liked all of these movies if you read ALL of my post. I just gave my opinions of them. I don't expect anyone to agree with my opinion.

    i think your assesment of the star wars formula is pretty accurate, except many elements of it are missing from AOTC in the eyes of many fans.

    DrEvazan, I know that you can be civil. I think a lot of people who come here might not argue with you so much and possibly even respect your opinion if you would simply replace the "in the eyes of many fans" with "in my eyes". It's not your opinion people have a problem with. You've established that you hate AOTC and the PT in general, ad nauseum. It's your broad, sweeping and mostly FALSE generalizations about "many fans" that people disagree with. Or at least I disagree with anyway.
  21. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "DrEvazan, I know that you can be civil. I think a lot of people who come here might not argue with you so much and possibly even respect your opinion if you would simply replace the "in the eyes of many fans" with "in my eyes". It's not your opinion people have a problem with. You've established that you hate AOTC and the PT in general, ad nauseum. It's your broad, sweeping and mostly FALSE generalizations about "many fans" that people disagree with. Or at least I disagree with anyway."

    To I_WAS_JUST_BANNED you listen to. :)
  22. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    You don't have to be elitist to realize that films like American Pie are utter rubbish. There's mindless entertainment and then there's MINDLESS entertainment.

    I really think that anybody who likes such a film must be an idiot. Call me elitist but that is exactly how I feel.
  23. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    ill see your american pie and raise you one freddy got fingered and a case of jar jar binks monster mouth candy tongues.
  24. I_WAS_JUST_BANNED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 1
    BANNED: "robin williams is a genius"

    that one explains itself.


    It does? elaborate please. Have you seen Insomnia yet? How about his recent HBO stand up special? Anyone who can perform in two projects like these in the same year is a genius. Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in entertainment. I smell professional envy.

    You don't have to be elitist to realize that films like American Pie are utter rubbish. There's mindless entertainment and then there's MINDLESS entertainment.

    I really think that anybody who likes such a film must be an idiot. Call me elitist but that is exactly how I feel.


    Did you read my post? I didn't say I liked American Pie. I said I DISLIKED American Pie 2.

    You are an elitist. Have fun living and dying miserable, see if I care.

    I think the point that a lot of people are missing is that acting like you have a lot of professional insight or critical thinking ability or a higher ability for criticism DOES NOT give you anymore credit or clout on a Star Wars chat forum. It only makes you sound like a boring, predictable loser with no one who respects your opinion in the real world outside the internet. Call me an idiot for liking American Pie. I'm smiling and you're not, who feels better at the end of the day?

  25. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Robin Williams gives possibly one of his finest performances in the upcoming "One Hour Photo".
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.