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ST What's "the hook" that Lucasfilm will be betting on, which sells Ep IX as a must-see blockbuster?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Tyrian, May 27, 2018.

  1. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    This very much reminds me of Aragorn's interaction with the king of the dead in LOTR: Return of the King! That moment when Anduril (sp?) clashed with the ghosts sword even though everything else went thru him was great. I'd love to see something like that in SW. Only thing is that would be the first time we'd have seen a lightsaber enter the netherworld of the Force...but hey-if Yoda can have his staff, then-why not!?
     
  2. Tyrian

    Tyrian Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    I should have mentioned it earlier, but Leia would make for a great hook. Yes, even though Carrie Fisher is dead and never shot footage for IX.

    Because the very first things people think when hearing / being confronted with that is: What? How is that possible? Could they pull that off? Will it be a train wreck?

    I'd call it an all-or-nothing strategy: If Leias original planned arc for the movie was substantial (which we know it was - because it was touted as being 'leias film'), and they decided to largely stick with the spirit of said arc, albeit necessitated via creative editing / retoolage footage / body doubles etc. It doesnt mean she needs to be in a ton of scenes, she can be used rather sparingly / specifically, just the key scenes for her character arc. (fantasy example: the scene where she speaks with Kylo at the 11th hour and facilitates his redemption)

    Peoples interest will be piqued. Some will be looking to see if its a train wreck, others will be looking to see whether the film can successfully and respectfully pay tribute to (and close the story for) the character and actress so central to the saga.

    If you were told / shown / implied, via the marketing, that Leia was a key player in IX - what would your reaction be? Id wager that itd be a pretty strong one (with most people falling between 'how is that even possible' and 'how the hell would they pull that off?' - and all of those reactions serve the purpose for getting audiences hooked. It could be as simple as the 'chewy, we're home' scene which lasts only seconds... with the IX trailer showing a backlit silhouette of Leia simply saying, "you're my son - and the Force is with you."

    If you told me Leia was in Episode IX, despite however jaded I might have become after TLJ and whatever apathy I might have towards SW after Solo+TLJ.... id still like to see how they handled that character.

    (The working assumption here are that Carries family is fine with Leia being portrayed posthumously, which appears so - given Todd Fishers recent interview where he spoke about exactly this.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  3. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    ^^^ I do agree with that. I have always been on the side of including Leia in some way, even if it means very limited scenes but powerful ones. People would think "wait, so they ARE going to have Leia in the film?" and wonder.

    I think that what they do depends on Billie Lourd's opinion and input. Not sure where Billie stands on this. She did have an elevated role in TLJ along with her mother, so who knows.
     
  4. Roosterq

    Roosterq Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 6, 2017
    I'm not against the approach, but I think it's a risky move. TLJ used similar promotion tactics for TLJ, and the concern that Leia will be shoehorned in with CGI, and spliced together footage, could possibly be counter productive. They could make it clear in the trailers, her character will have a big impact on the movie, yet still not have much screen time, at all. My only hope for Leia, is they pay huge respect to Carrie and don't make it look like she's included at any cost for the Leia namesake.
     
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  5. Tyrian

    Tyrian Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Feb 5, 2000
    I agree, and i'm in two minds about it, both of which have merits:

    Angel voice: They need to take some bold risks (like this) with IX, to help shrug off audience/fan apathy after TLJ. Get people re-energised and excited again.
    Devil Voice: They already took those bold risks with TLJ (too many / too subversive, some would say) and in light of the subsequent derision / backlash - should stick to walking safer ground in IX.

    So, its ironic my internal dialogue is: I'd love them to take some serious risks in IX.... when I acknowledge it was those same risks taken in TLJ which soured me and brought me to a currently apathetic state. /shrug
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  6. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    It's a catch-22 situation. Including Leia means you keep the original plan as intact as possible, keep the emotional impact of having the Kylo/Leia moment and resolution, and make fans happy on an emotional level. But you risk criticism of disrespecting Carrie, having a cheap way of including Leia that feels ingenuous to some, and risking poor execution that feels very forced.

    On the other hand, not including Leia and having her pass away between films puts the movie in despair from the getgo with nowhere to go to make it completely emotionally satisfying and filling it with "what if's" that will be argued for a long time, making fans feel they never got the movie that was meant to be shown from the start.

    In that way, having limited Leia presence but having that presence filled with emotion is the way to go. In my story treatment, I suggested having IX open with Leia on a ship on a mission to recruit allies from all over the galaxy. But the ship is attacked and we see Leia in a hologram to Poe and then it fades. We see the attack on the ship, but Leia only appears as a hologram. Kylo senses it to as he never authorized that attack (it was ordered by Hux). Kylo is clearly emotionally struck by it and goes on a rampage, displying his newly menacing dark powers.

    Near the end of the film when the Resistance is close to being wiped out for good, Poe gets a transmission from a voice he does not know but says he is an old friend of Leia's. It is Lando, who received leia's plea just before the attack. Lando took it upon himself to continue Leia's efforts and legions from all over the galaxy come to help out the resistance (with the final blow being an assault from the stormtroopers that Finn recruited). So Leia's legacy lives on.
     
  7. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 25, 2003
    I definitely would have a "how the heck will they pull that off?!" reaction if Leia is the hook for the Episode IX trailers. But you're right @Tyrian, it would get me pretty stoked-simply due to my curiosity if nothing else!
     
  8. Anakin's Daddy

    Anakin's Daddy Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 13, 2002
    I think the Hook basically needs to be that Lucasfilm announces that they're pulling out all the stops to get things back on track. It's got to be the best of the Trilogy. They need to announce that this one's for the core fans. Some Leia, Lando, Han's funeral, Luke, Anakin, Yoda & Obi-Wan-Ghosts, Rey's lineage, Kylo Ren as a more confident villain, Poe and Finn as better heroes, good saber duels... Obviously that all can't be hinted at in the trailer but they need to somehow show that's it's going to be really satisfying to their core fan base.
     
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  9. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    I'm all for them sticking with the spirit of the original story if they can come up with a creative way to do it but if it means using CGI, archival footage, body doubles etc...I think the lead up to the movie and it's release will be consumed by an angry internet argument about if it was a good idea or not to include Carrie Fisher's likeness in the film. I feel like that's largely all anybody would focus on and probably not in a good way.
     
  10. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    @The Regular Mustache but at the same time, "brushing" it off as a prologue explanation and/or a funeral may be equally seen as disrespectful (albeit only when the film comes out) and may enrage fans too as not showing respect for the character and Carrie herself. So, there really has to be something in the middle.

    But I agree exploiting the situation and using the fact that "Leia is in this film-see how we pulled it off!" would be terribly offensive. There is a thin layer of ice they need to be walking with this situation.
     
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  11. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

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    Sep 19, 2002
    @jedijax

    My suggestion is to get the family involved. Billie will be in Episode IX (and IMHO should get a bigger role) while her brother Todd is very good about explaining her estate wishes. I think the two of them can advice JJ what is the best course of action for Episode IX should do in terms of Carrie/Leia.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  12. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Yes, I've agreed with this all along. Billie, of all people, should have the most to say about it. From an emotional standpoint, she's the go to person and her wishes need to be followed more than anything. She's Carrie's daughter so that's the biggest deal. I am also guessing that this discussion has been ongoing with them and JJ and KK also.
     
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  13. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Yeah I definitely don’t want them to address it in the crawl or to have a quick little funeral scene. I also think some sort of middle ground might work. What that is I’m not sure.

    As I’ve said elsewhere Lando being pulled into the action by Leia’s request could be one small part of making the characters feel like Leia is looking out for the Resistance.

    A while back I had a theory that Kylo would be having visions of a mysterious little girl who is wise beyond her years and the two would interact throughout the movie. During the movie we think this girl is simply one of the Force sensitive kids that the FO has kidnapped. But later we’ll learn that Leia has been talking through this girl or perhaps the girl is a Force Ghost of Leia in the form of her young self?

    Also we won’t know that Leia is dead for a while. Then the audience and Kylo both learn at the same time that the girl is speaking for Leia and that Leia has passed away peacefully. That way they kinda sidestep the thorny issue of recasting Leia while also having somebody else kinda sorta play the character.

    I doubt it will happen but I love the idea of it.

    If Kylo is brought back to the light side I kinda like the visual idea of in that moment Kylo falls to one knee so he’s the same height as this little girl and the two embrace. Then again I’m a big cheese ball.

    I also like the idea that when it’s revealed that the girl is speaking for Leia we’d get at least one quick image of Carrie Fisher when Kylo puts it all together.
     
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  14. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    "Luke's return" is really the only thing that comes to mind that could safe this movie from bombing. Not even sure I will go watch it in the cinemas and I'm a die hard SW fan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  15. Demsa Aztor

    Demsa Aztor Jedi Master star 4

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    May 29, 2016
    Frankly, I have no clue what would be a hook as TLJ made this sequel feel "finished" for lack of a better word. I doubt this would happen, however, I think finishing this film series can only be done properly over two films. If they are putting standalones to the side, then use the revenue to produce two films to conclude the saga.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  16. Revan's Revenge

    Revan's Revenge Jedi Knight

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Skipping 18 pages of replies I'll just say:

    - I care zero about the First Order vs. the Resistance. They are both small-time actors playing dress-up as Empire and Rebellion, respectively.
    - Rey and Kylo Ren are interesting and may be enough
    - I think your "conclusion of the Skywalker Saga" is the right approach, and it will need to wrap up not only this trilogy, but all 3. Frankly, I think it's too much ground to cover, given that Episode VIII didn't appreciably advance this trilogy's plot enough, but it should include major players from all 3, including Force Ghost Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke.
     
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  17. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    ^^^ Well yeah. The Resistance/First Order thing has really seemed muted compared to the Empire/Rebels. It's like a knock-off. If they don't do something interesting with the Kylo/Rey dynamic then it all falls somewhat short emotionally. Nobody's saying "oh I can't wait to see how the Resistance beats the First Order". It's always been about "who is Rey? Why is she so important? What is her connection to the Skywalkers and the lightsaber?" and also "what will happen to Kylo? How will he redeem himself with his family". Unfortunately, another question was "who and what is Snoke?" which was abruptly ended. Or so we think.
     
  18. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

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    Mar 9, 2001
    Is that really different from the OT or PT though?
    The questions after ESB and AOTC weren't "how are the rebels going to win?" and "how will the Empire rise?", they mostly were stuff like "is Vader really Luke's father?" "will Han come back?" and "how exactly is Anakin going to fall to the darkside?". Not to mention the anticipation for the Anakin vs Obi Wan duel. The galaxy-wide conflict has always been the companion-piece to the core of the story, which was on the personal level. This isn't any different in the ST.
     
  19. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    probably the war... they'll probably try to make a really epic war, which will be horrible since the FO is such a joke, and resistance vs. FO was pretty boring in TLJ too. maybe they'll think if they market it like Avengers Infinity War it will be "awesome".
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  20. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    @Oissan Not sure actually as I think my brain is getting foggier and foggier lol. For the PT we had a pre-determined finish point so we knew exactly where we were going. The Empire/Rebels thing had to be started and Anakin's turn was directly tied to it so it served a dual purpose. Also, with the OT, I think that the Empire/Rebel thing started it all so it really all fit together. In ANH I think we were equally interested in both the Force stuff and war stuff but the war stuff took most of the focus. In ESB, yes, the Force stuff came on much more strongly but by then we were also deeply entrenched in the war.

    With the ST, the war is just not very interesting at all. The Force stuff, being SO open and even now SO mysterious, takes on a MUCH stronger presence and with Rey herself being so mysterious it's that much more interesting. The war is not going in any direction that the OT/PT war went.

    But yes as most of us have kept saying, both ESB and AOTC had mysterious loose ends OR great anticipation to complete. That's where the challenge is with TLJ to IX. ALL we have at the moment is "how will the good guys in the war". There's nothing else lingering and that is a bit of an obstacle that JJ has to jump.
     
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  21. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 25, 2003
    Agreed. IIRC, this is how it was handled by the executors of the Cushing estate when Tarkin was given a CG role in Rogue One. And that was no cameo-he had a solid supporting role, including not much less screentime than ANH.

    I personally would prefer not to see Leia in Episode IX in this way-I'd rather they work her absence into the story somehow (there are ways to make it work believably), but as far as any moral implications; I don't see any difference between Leia in IX or Tarkin in R1. IMO the argument on appropriateness/respectfulness applies to both scenarios. This is why I agree that the heirs to the estate should be the ones to decide.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  22. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

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    Sep 19, 2002
    @oncafar

    If they marketed as "Infinity War" they need to focus on one part of it..."this one is for the fans". Other then that they should stay clear off any Infinity War comparisons especially since Marvel spent ten years/15 plus movies building to it. Episode IX might be the end of the "Skywalker Saga" but Lucasfilm has not been building towards it like that. Heck not even the ST has built towards it since whatever JJ had planned as the story tree for the ST was disregarded by the director who must not be named as he did his own thing. They need to keep thing simple. Episode IX - "For the fans", end of story.

    And I do agree the war between the Resistence/Rebellion (what are their names now)/First Order are nothing more then fanboys/girls playing dress up. If this movie succeeds it will be on the acks

    @DARTH_BELO

    I agree about not seeing Leia in Episode IX. I think her death could be the cataylst for the whole film to shoot off. Not only it will trigger Kylo in whatever direction he goes in while it leave the Resistance/Rebellion truly leaderless not only in term of military prowess but also a spiritual leader as I think it's very safe to say Leia was the heart/soul of the Resistance. The death of Leia could be a great way to start Episode IX even if it's off screen and again would start the whole movie in motion.
     
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  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    @Luke02 - well, I don't think it would be a good hook at all. I just have really low expectations.
     
  24. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

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    Sep 19, 2002
    @oncafar

    "For the fans" I think can be a really great hook if executed right. It worked wonders for Infinity War and even Incredibles 2. It also some self reflection by Disney as it be acknowledging without saying it that there is a lot of angst and really hurt feelings among the fans so this is there way of saying they hear that and care. But I doubt they will go that route so this is all for giggles and I agree. I have low expectations too which is perhaps for the best.
     
  25. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Yeah but I don't understand how "for the fans" = massive war. I mean, which fans? TFA was "for the fans" in this over-nostalgia saturated way and I was kind of at a loss about that as well.