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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

What's up with Europe?!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Emilie, Oct 8, 2002.

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  1. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Stifling a political view that breaks no laws, no matter how heinous or ridiculous the view, does not serve the public good. If such views are stifled, they are not confronted, countered and defeated in the public forum.

    Such ideas do not die until they are discredited openly.

     
  2. Runaway_Shadow

    Runaway_Shadow Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    The Netherlands and Pim Fortyun's party

    Uhm, need I remind you Pim Fortyun is dead?

    Okay, so his party is living on, and yes there are some major problems, but so has everybody :D

    Okay, geting to the point.

    What you are saying, like the LPF, doesn't have affect on the whole world. Currently what America is doing has.

    And you can hardly compare the two... us being so little 8-}
     
  3. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Someone here is apparently not reading correctly, i never said it was illegal to think and/or believe in racism, you are allowed to think and believe what you want, as i have stated here numerous times, but you are not allowed to instill hatred or to publicly demean others, for example the klu klux klan, such acts as the ones made by these idiotic indivilduals is what is forbidden, because it lowers the social morality.

    Allowing free speech is one thing, acting upon these beliefs to hurt others, is where it is wrong, thankfully there are laws in some places that forbid such acts.
     
  4. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Funny thing is Darth_Omega, now that you mention it, in the US it is illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, you can go to jail and be sued, according to the law, but you are allowed to speak and think all of those discriminatory acts, you can laugh at someone for being black or hispanic, you can shun them personally and not have a relationship with them publicly or personally, but you are not allowed to act upon your "feelings", such hypocrisy is what is illogical. How come we can believe all of that and not get away with acting upon that, to me and to others, saying and doing are intertwined. So why do i go to jail for mailing a threatening letter to the president? aren't i allowed to think and say what i want? but why is the difference between inciting hate against a race, than threatening a president, since i haven't carried out either one physically.

    It makes no sense how american law protects public displays in such a convinient way, you protect people who incite violence and hate, you let them display those feelings and words in public, is it because americans (or politicians) are afraid of steppinig on someone's foot? Because preaching the Bible in public is always met with being disbanded and sent off, because supposedly they are making an illegal act, which is preaching religion/belief/faith, and the separation of church and state does not allow it. Well what if we call racism a religion/belief/faith, why is that protected? Do i see a double standard? In the US? Almost always.
     
  5. Emilie

    Emilie Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2002
    IMO, jailling Mégret or Lepen for "incitation to racial hate" and "racist words" would be a good thing.
    These people don't mind using any way of lies, hate and propaganda to push people to hate and then elect them.
    Using such hideous ways to gain electors is something the democratical parties won't do, because it would be re-doing what these neo-nazis are doing.
    Thus, the neo-nazis gain more and more voices.
    Still, the moment we stop believing in the republic is the moment we lose it (where did I hear that? ;) ). That's why I believe it is for the good of the whole to jail ANYBODY who would push people to racial hate.

    Remember something, Americans. Europe has had some real troubles with racism and nationalism, 50 years ago. It can not be forgotten so fast and we are all afraid the economical crisis would push people to do it again. (That's what happened in the 30ies!) That's why these laws are here. To prevent from such horrors to ever happen again...
     
  6. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Since you're so certain you're right, I ask again, where do you draw the line? It's not like Racism is the only thing out there.

    Then again maybe there aren't. You Europeans are so advanced and morally upright you've passed all these little problems we savage backward American's keep having.

    Right?

    <shrug>

    I see the bigger hypocracy is not allowing people to say what they believe rather then not letting them act on what they say.

    Edit// Yes, because the US hasn't had problems with racism at all. o_O

    Or, not....
    Hey you know what, we did this thing where we pretty much banned communism and threw anyone involved with it in jail, yeah it didn't work to well. So exactly what do you do when your whole anti-facism/racism thing puts people in power who are rabidly anti-facist and pretty much rabid in general?

    You're swinging from extremes here people.

     
  7. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I ask again, where do you draw the line? It's not like Racism is the only thing out there.

    Well Xenophobia is a form off racism, while Nazism is completly banned in Germany (which is understandable IMO), dunno about other countries.

    You Europeans are so advanced and morally upright you've passed all these little problems we savage backward American's keep having.

    Right?


    No, we think it's better for us. Thanks to our bloody history, you think it's wrong that's fine by us, your opinion. I'll respect that.

    I see the bigger hypocracy is not allowing people to say what they believe rather then not letting them act on what they say.

    I said somewhere that Europeans see racism as a discrimination NOT as a belief. Before you say such a thing you must think of that.

    And we're talking about a way of thinking that contradicts the equal right law, not about for example Christianity where everyone is repescted equally.

    Oh yeah you forgot to add "in public" in that sentence.

    yeah it didn't work to well.

    What happend? It sounds interesting

    So exactly what do you do when your whole anti-facism/racism thing puts people in power who are rabidly anti-facist and pretty much rabid in general

    I'll be against it I don't want rabid in charge of country and I'll say it.

    But if the people are brainwashed by propaganda... [face_plain]
     
  8. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    A way of thinking that contradicts the equal rights law?

    Do you not see the irony in that? You're removing peoples rights to "protect" others. Of course that is a time honored method, although I don't think you'd find your philisophical ancestors very good neighbors.

    Right right the best of intentions. Like locking up Japanese Americans to keep them from spying or sabatoging, that whole violating their rights thing was just a pesky side effect.

    If you're unwilling to protect the rights fo the minority for the illusion of security you in for another round of authoritarianism in the name of national safety.
     
  9. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Like locking up Japanese Americans to keep them from spying or sabatoging, that whole violating their rights thing was just a pesky side effect

    That's the worst comparison that you can possibly think off. If racists are caught, they are always put to trial. They do have rights you know. We don't throw people in jail without a trial.

    If you're unwilling to protect the rights fo the minority for the illusion of security you in for another round of authoritarianism in the name of national safety.

    It's been like that since WW2, oh well.
     
  10. Tukafo

    Tukafo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2002
    When I was in Boston last year I saw Nazi toys in a big toyshop. Yes, I'm not joking - they offered swastikas, Nazi dolls and other Nazi military toys for every child to see and buy. Now, that made me SICK? Are you Americans proud of that? That your wonderful first amendment allows your children to play with this?

    And then you have journalists that get fired because they criticised George Bush after 11/09. Where's your freedom of speech here?

    In Europe we have freedom of speech. The only clause in it is that your freedom ends once you infringe the basic human rights of other people. And that's perfectly reasonable to me.
     
  11. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Well said Tukafo, same here in Mexico, in fact a past president once said "The rescpect to another's right yields peace". I see that as a way of promoting peace, i would rather have that than an amendment that promotes anarchy in the name of freedom, and a false freedom at that.
     
  12. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Tufako freedom of speech is the freedom to say what you want, not the freedom to be paid to say it. If the editors of the newspapers don't want thier journalist saying things that piss off their readers and make subscription drops they have every right to fire them.

    You understand capitalism right?

    People can say whatever they want, but the listeners can(and often do) respond with their pocket books. You can make Nazi toys all you want, but if people refuse to buy them and boycott stores that sell them then the stores are going to no longer stock them and the makers are going to go out of buisness.

    Ok?

    Now for another correction. Shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre(to use the common example) is not protected. You actions have caused(or could ahve caused) grave injury to people and you can and probably will be arrested for it. Now, I'm not sure what the law would say about a Neo Nazi telling his followers the Blacks are out to get them and they should all be killed and then his followers going out and doing it. I'm nto quite up to date on if he could be held responsible but I think there might be a very strong case for a prosecuter to make. Words have no power without action. America calls on it's citizens to recognize the difference and have it's citizens restrain themselves.

    While you migth argue there is a similar call for restrain amoung other countrie sabout speaking their opinions, there is no such thind as freedom of action, while most democratic countries recognize freedom of speech.
     
  13. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    I thought I'd up this, especially after reading that little article on Yahoo about a half a million European's marching protesting the war against Iraq. Not that Im upset about that, I don't like Bush's proposal either, I think the Emperor stays up all night watching westerns and war movies.

    But what caught my eye is some of the things that was said. Do Europeans really like Saddam? We've been told the only reason were acting is because of oil, I believe thats the only reason Europe isn't acting. Its about oil on both sides of the ocean, but why support a tyrant? This is a man who used chemical weapons on Kurdish villages in the late 80's, and you see nothing wrong with that? Have you guys seen the picture's of that attack? There was one of a boy about 10 years old whose face literally hangs off head because of reactions to the gas.

    Then theres the support of the Palestinians. Why support terrorists? I don't believe Israel is always in the right, and I believe Palestine deserves and should have its own state. But first they need to condemn terrorism, plane and simple, it IS an abomination to Allah, Ive spoken to many Muslims who all say suicide in no way shape or form is acceptable. Question how many Europeans found September 11, 2001 to be a good thing? I bet there were millions that cheered. After all we deserved it didn't we?
    Israeli citizens do to right?

    My biggest beef is Europeans claim the US is nothing more than a teenager, strong in body, but in desperate need of leadership. They claim their nations are wiser, and have learned from the past. Which I find humorous, how many thousands of years, and bloody wars did it take you to learn that WAR IS NOT A GOOD THING? In truth it wasn't learning from the past, but rather fearing for the future wasn't it? If the two superpowers, the US and USSR went to war, it would be Europe who took most of the fallout. That is why Europe learned to live together more than learning from the past I believe, and I doubt anybody can tell me otherwise. Now I would like to see Europe begin showing us this infinite wisdom they aquired right after World War II. How can they do that? 1 quit pretending Saddam is their buddy, he's more of a Hitler than Bush is, he'd have his own genocide and everything if we let him, just ask the Kurds.
    2)Condmen terrorism. Im not going to start on this youre either with us or against us bull****, but actually supporting suicide bombers, how do you people dare criticize the US for the death penalty?

    A European, a Brit, John Lennon once said "Life is easy with your eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" I think that applies to the Europeans in this matter. Yes America's foreign policies is outdated, and needs a major upgrade. But supporting tyrants and terrorists? I think the US isn't the only ones who need to change their view on the world. Let us as the west, the US and Europe take a good look at the world, let us truly become the United Nations instead of this us and them, or were better than you because.... We more than anyother group of people have the ability to change the world for the better, together who better to bring peace and prosperity to the world as a whole.

    In closing, I am a firm believer in FDR's four freedoms. These four small freedom's should be embraced and shared by all, and if we are to be the great societies we claim to be, we should see to it the world shares the same privlages we do.

    FDR's four freedoms: Freedom of speech and religion, freedom from fear and want.
     
  14. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Notice FDR cares not a whit about property rights.
     
  15. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    You want to talk about property rights we're going to have to start a thread entitled Liberalism to discuss the inherent views of liberals on property in the 18th and 19th Century, then watch it get derailed as a Republican/Democrat arguement. :D

    E_S
     
  16. SCOTSSITHLORD

    SCOTSSITHLORD Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Going back to the question of state bans on extremist political parties, I am completely opposed to such legislation. Yet I refuse to indulge in liberal cant or hypocrisy concerning the death of the dutch right winger Pym whatever his name was(apologies to all Dutch JC'ers for my ignorance of his name). I'm not at all sorry that he's dead, he was a waste of DNA, and if one thing really angers me it is the myth of free speech.
    Various US JC'ers have contributed in this thread in the seemingly serious belief that free speech is a reality within the US. What do they think the FBI is there for? From the Black panthers, Martin Luther King, the US/SWP onwards it has spied upon and subverted any and every individual/organisation deemed to be subversive.
    On the substantive issue of european integration I find myself in a minority. A socialist who is opposed to the EU. As a socialist I am completely committed to federalism and long to see an end of the backward, feudalism of the UK,but this cause is not served by the EU. It's central plank, the treaty of rome, is a blueprint for the thatcherisation of europe, and Aznar, Berlusconi, and Blair are merely being true to those goals when they pursue their current politico-economic agenda.
    I am in favour of a federal europe, and a genuinely decentralised, european state, but the current EU structures fall far short of this ideal.
     
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