PT What's up with Sidious' claim in ROTS?

When Yoda struts into Palpatine's office in the third act of ROTS, just as they're igniting their lightsabers, Sidious predicts that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious. Always seemed like a weird line to me. Sidious is a power hungry, ego maniac. I can't imagine him ever even contemplating someone else becoming more powerful than himself, much less his apprentice. Isn't the point of the Sith that the master is always trying to control the apprentice for his own purposes?

 

Yes, but he knew that eventually Vader was going to attempt to destroy him just like every other Sith apprentice ever.

 

I get that Sidious understands the whole Rule of Two nature of the Sith. But even if you understand that I feel like someone like Sidious would delude himself into thinking that in his case Vader just wasn't going to succeed because of course he (Sidious) is the most powerful Sith ever (in his own mind).

 

It ties into the vergence around Anakin, I would presume. Because of his unique nature and connection to the Force, he has the capacity to become more powerful than ANY being. Sidious knows and understands this; indeed, I would say it's why he turned Anakin in the first place.

 

Isn't Sidious playing with fire there a little bit then? Not that I don't like the idea, I do, but it would seem that Sidious is playing a really dangerous game by turning Anakin into his apprentice if he's meant to become so unbelievably powerful, especially since all Sith apprentices are meant to overthrow their masters.

 

Don't entirely know, since it was never addressed in the films or even in the EU, I think it's just going to have to be speculation all around. Perhaps Palpatine knew it was inevitable, and by turning Anakin, could jump a few rungs of the "Sith ladder", so to speak? Since Bane orchestrated the Rule of Two so that Sith would become increasingly more and more powerful. Of course, then Vader was defeated on Mustafar, and Palpatine had to stick him in the suit to keep him alive. Now Palpatine was the most powerful Sith and had Vader completely wrapped around his finger.

 

This probably has to do with the mysteries of Anakin's origin, and I don't think we can really know the answer based on the information we've been given. Since the Jedi think there's a chance Anakin might destroy the Sith, I guess Sidious is bragging that he has some countermeasure that prevents Anakin's "chosen-one-ness" from being a threat to him.

It's sort of a continuation of what Sidious tells Anakin to his face earlier: Anakin will become the most powerful, but he should side with Sidious because Sidious knows more about the Force than the "narrow, dogmatic" Jedi.

Whoops.

 

Palpatine, if we're to infer this from the saga, belived that he had access to immortality. He didn't care if Vader overthrew and killed him because he knew it wouldn't spell true death for him. He needed Vader to get himself into a position of power, then if he died, he could just come back after Vader's death and re-assume ultimate power

Aaaaand that clearly didn't work out for him. Sorry Palpy

 

"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret!"

Sidious believes that he can control Vader by pretending to search for a way to save Padmé.

 

Darth Sidious: "You will not stop me! Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"
Master Yoda: "Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force."
Darth Sidious: "That is where you are wrong! My best accountants crunched the numbers and determined that his high midi-chlorian count will yield an excellent Sith output in the coming years!"

 

It's within his interest to have an apprentice that has the potential to surpass him and keep the Sith order alive.

 

I think Palpatine sees "Lord Vader" as his creature, an experiment he did on the (potentially) most powerful Jedi of all time, to turn him into a slave. His slave.

 

sidious isn't planning on letting himself get killed or anything.
what he's saying to yoda is "anakin is the chosen one. by becoming a sith he can now tap into even more power and btw he's on my side now! ha ha!"

 

He can be more powerful, but power without guidance is useless. Anankin spends 2 and a half films "lost" before officially taking his lead from Palpatine and becoming Darth Vader. Anakin knows this and will never over throw his master as he doesn't appear to have a game plan.

 

When Anakin slayed Dooku on account that Palpatine was the one that said "Good Anakin Good, Now Kill Him" and he did of course, he knew it was the start of a manipulation Palpatine was going to win over time especially since a Sith Lord can sense his emotions.

Anakins mind was always clouded, theres no possible way there was so much talk about how Anakin was the chosen one and able to become the strongest Force User ever, and Anakin not now that throughout his training. and the only true ties in between why everyone believed it is because of his midi-chloron count that it was higher then Yodas and he didnt have a true father because he was made from pure midi-chloron. All Anakin ever cared about were three things: Padamai, Shme(his mother) and Power. Love and Power?
There was no Peace in any of Anakins theories, he was destined to become Sith.

The answer to what I think your looking for is that Palpatine knew Anakin under his wing being the chosen one and already sensing how powerful he was at such a young age he knew he was going to the true all mighty Sith Lord. Did it happen? Absolutley not...i dont even think Vader was suppost to live to be honest, that damn suit and his connection to the force kept him alive. Anakin wanted to overthrow the Emperor eventually with Padamay on his side, and rule under his Empire, that plan went horribly wrong.

 

Hm, that's interesting. I was under the assumption that the Sith we're completely selfish. Didn't know they had an imperative to keep the order going.

 

That makes sense. As long as the most powerful being in the galaxy is mentally enslaved to him then Sidious still wins.

 

I think Sidious really believed what he said about Anakin. If he did in fact believe Anakin to be the Chosen One, and he had converted such a person to the dark side, that potential would have been there. Even if Anakin had remained a Jedi, the same still could have been true. I think Yoda may have sensed doom for Anakin, hence his comment about Sidious being overconfident.

 

That's why they have an apprentice. One doesn't contradict the other.

 

I can see the OP posters point.

Sidious doesn't seem a Darth Bane or Darth Maul type to me.

He seemed (to me) to be the sort that would dismiss the Sith order if it got in his way or if it's doctrines said something he disliked.

Was it a weird line? yeah I suppose, but so was "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi" a line that should have been said (if at all) in TPM, not half way through the third film.

But I'm nit picking.

 

As ego-maniacal as Sidious is, and as much as he doesn't want to give up power, he had no way of cheating death. So one way or another someday somebody was going to take his place.

 

Much like a King that has a stronger, better son, he's still king. He'll always want to be king. He knows however, that he will die. So why not have the best replace you?

 

I agree. I think Sidious was downright scared of Anakin reaching his full power as a Jedi - and he should gave been.


Sent from my R2 unit

 

Only in that the Empire will last forever and up to Plagueis, they die just like everyone else. Ergo, the Sith have to continue if the Empire is to continue.

Palpatine was no different from his Master, nor from Bane.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Let's face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

 

Powerful yes.

He didn't say he'd be the smartest guy ever.

That'd be him.

Power without the ability to use them means nothing.