PT What's up with Sidious' claim in ROTS?

The "more powerful than either of us" is an important line. I believe DV DOES become more powerful than Sidious and Yoda, however, as others have said, he is enslaved by the Emperor. I feel like Sidious' evil smile at the end of RotS adds to this too (after the earthquake DV causes--certainly not the efforts of a weakened apprentice), now he's got Vader just where he wants him. Also, being enslaved makes lines like: "I MUST obey my master" work, and really brings home the Anakin/Vader as a slave since the beginning. And I always like to bring up the ANH line: "when last we met I was but the learner, now, I am the master." Even Obi-Wan doesn't really contradict him, but acknowledges his power is from "evil" (the dark side). Yes, DV loses to Luke in RotJ, but I feel like we see his slip away from the dark side throughout RotJ (AT-AT scene on Endor w/ Luke). He is still a slave to the Emperor, but has a fatalistic attitude, and seems like (yes, this is an assumption) that he would rather let Luke slay him than for him (DV) to kill Luke. (DV's character change from the end of ESB to RotJ is intriguing, but a topic for another day). The surge of rage/strength the dark side gives DV is now coming to Luke as DV comes closer to the LS. And further, DV does overcome Palpatine, which no one who is "crippled" or "a shadow of his former strength" could do. If Sidious was more powerful, DV wouldn't have thrown him down the shaft.

(PS, I realize there are holes in this, but still feel that the movies better support this position than a weakened Vader)

 

So does losing body parts make you lose force power? Seems to be what GL is implying but it also appears that the force still works through mechanical limbs since we see Vader choking people with his robotic right arm. Although he can also do this without moving at all or even being in the same room so maybe actually physically outstretching the arm is just for show and the choke has nothing to do with the actual physical movement

 

The Sith always betray each other (can't remember where i first heard this from have a feeling it a KotOR game) as each subsequent Sith believes that if you have more power than one person then you are better than them, ergo if they believe that they have more power than their master they will betray him/her

Sideous was aware of this ergo knew that his 'time' as it were would come to a eventual end

 

Losing limbs or mass may be what GL implies or states outright in interviews, but it really rings false with the films. (PS, as I often recommend, see "death of the author," and, as much as a GL fan I am (big-time) still don't think his out-of-movie views hold weight. Sometimes, people will quote GL as the last word on a topic, and it just ain't so to me--look at the work head on and your experience w/ it.). I mean, Yoda outright STATES this in ESB: "luminous beings are we, NOT this crude matter."

 

I think even if you have meticulous control of lifting things or choking people, you won't exactly be an agility sportsman with no limbs, lungs, or free body

 

Sidious knew Anakin would become an extremely powerful Jedi, and more than likely fulfill the prophecy. And as that old saying goes, "If you can't beat them, join then." But in this case..... "If you can't beat them, trick them into joining you." Lol....

 

How would he know about the prophecy? And if he did know he would fulfill it, why would he 'hire' the person whose fate was to destroy the Sith.

 

so that he wouldn't destroy the sith.

 

What assurance did he have, if that was the case?

 

he didn't but if anakin is a sith he's less likely to destroy them.

 

Vader still has connection to the Force, but that connection is diminished. He cannot generate lightning and his movements are slower than before. He's still a capable fighter, but the potential to truly be powerful is diminished.

Right. That's why he had to turn Anakin to the dark side. That's why he spent thirteen years being his friend and twisting his mind to his way of thinking. That's why he waited to reveal himself to Anakin when he was ready and not a moment sooner.

 

Que General Grievous, who was an agile swordsman and did not have force ability. I don't see mechanical limbs being weaker, (DV picking up the captain in ANH, easily, w/ one hand. On the other hand, I do see mechanical body parts as steps away from a person's humanity (as we saw with
Anakin and Luke)

 

We have no real evidence that DV is diminished in the force and cannot generate lightning, we never see him employ it (the imo silly "oh, it would short out his hands." excuse doesn't work for me) Yes, George has said this but, again, death of the author.

(In movie explanation= (which I don't usually like to use) was that the powers that be saved the Sith lightning for the Emperor's signature power in RotJ. DV already had his own move, the force choke. There was no need to see DV when the did the special editions using force lightning, and in RotS he is in the film for a short time (and does employ his handy force choke).

 

Grievous was almost entirely rebuilt practically as a droid. His new body was designed for agility and speed. Anakin/Vader, on the other hand, was still mostly human, sans limbs and functioning respiratory organs. I'd say Grievous had a bit of a one-up in this case

 

That was before Obi-Wan diced him up on Mustafar, so yeah, Sidious was salivating at how he could make Anakin THAT GUY!

 

I mean, you have a point. The films can validly be read many ways. But, taken on simply what the movies present us with (and not taking into account what the production crew or technological state-of-the moment is/was) I see Vader's suit designed more for power, whereas GG's "enhancements" were for agility/utility, turning him into the spidery guy we see in RotS. The way I read it is that GG needed that speed in order to face Jedi. Vader, however, got a boost in strength when put in the suit (physical and connection to the dark side) but at the very high cost of much of what makes him human. And he could take care of himself in the agility department too, (see ESB duel--although some will argue that it isn't "fast" or "flashy" enough, it shows DV at no "dexterity disadvantage," he's a much better fighter, cagey, considerate, dangerous, than he was jumping about on Mustafar (though I love that duel too)). The shot at the end of RotS with the helmet coming down with the red vision he will then be seeing with I feel was very effective (particularly due to DV/Anakin's words to Luke at the end of RotJ). He has a shotgun choice, to stay alive he must serve the dark side and become a killing, terror-causing weapon. The Emperor has a DV to wield, and never (as we see in the films) uses a lightsaber again.

 

There seem to be some parallels with Obi-Wan saying "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful." Maybe just a psych-out.

 

Inverse Dun Möch.

 

Well,

Perhaps the Emperor should have used a lightsaber again at least one more time, instead of concentrating to throw fierce flash-light-strokes on Luke, while neglecting totally, what's happening around them, i.e. the stand-up of Vader to save his son by throwing his master into the shaft.

This constellation of three persons is exactly, what Sith fear to happen and thus want to avoid by having installed the Rule of the Two. Never shall two persons unite against the third one, the master.

Sidious once was in a similar situation when he fought with two light sabres the two Zabrak brothers Maul and Oppress at Mandalore. That time it was clear to him, that the Two of them where posing a threat to him and his Empire. In the case of Luke/Vader he just was neglecting the strong family-bonds which finally led to his end. He was just to arrogant to realize, what Vader and Luke still or already felt for each other. And I guess his heydays have already passed, to be alert enough to prevent that merge.

 

Hmmmmhhhhhh.

 

I have a theory that the Sith look at their apprenteces as adoptive sons or daughters they are in a twisted way proud of, even though they're aware they'll eventually be overthrown by them. It would make sense that the Sith have romantic partners for their egotistical pleasure, but not putting in the time to love them or wanting to share them, even with a genetic offspring, let alone give up their own ambitions to care for said children.
An apprentice born without a dad who could be manipulated from a distance by feeding into his absent father complex and eventually just using him as a enforcer for his every bidding was about as much of a personal investment as a Sith like Palpatine could give another person.

I also assume the line, which is more of an arrogant school yard brag, sprung from Sidious' fear that the outcome of the duel could be in Yoda's favor. Basically, he claims even at the off chance of Yoda winning, his victory would be short lived, because of how many steps Sidious is ahead of him. He has his fail safe ready to continue his work.

 

You can kill George Lucas all you want (though that's very rude), but it's crystal clear just from the movies that Darth Vader becomes less powerful as a result of his injuries. In fact, that's the whole reason the line we're discussing is in the movie--to drive home the point that Darth Vader will become more powerful even than the Emperor. But then he gets all chopped up and burned and by the time the OT rolls around, even thought twenty whole years have passed, we see that Vader is now desperate to recruit Luke to his side so they can team up to take down the Emperor. Obviously, what the Emperor knew to be true in Episode III is no longer true as a result of what happened on Mustafar.

What Yoda is saying in TESB is that our true nature is luminous. Obviously he's not saying that we aren't currently confined within bodies made of crude matter. Obviously we are, and that's why we're not omnipotent. Mortal beings are limited while they're still mortal. He's just making a point to Luke that he's capable of more than he thinks he is, because there's a higher truth to his being. That doesn't mean he has no physical limitations. If Yoda really believed that, he wouldn't walk with a cane. If he really believed that, all the Jedi would be literal gods.

The idea is that life creates the Force and lets it flow, and so if you become less of a living form, your ability to use the Force will diminish. It's not so much about physical matter as it's about how much life there is in a person. There's not very much life left in Darth Vader anymore. Most of his form is composed of machinery, and what little living tissue is left is horribly damaged. The Force doesn't flow like it's supposed to. It's like it's going through a stopped-up pipe with a bunch of dead-ends everywhere. It's analogous to how qi is said to flow through the body's meridians according to traditional Chinese medicine.

IMO a lot of people take what Yoda says in TESB way too literally and dogmatically and turn it into some weird Gnostic thing where the physical world is both meaningless and something to be abhorred. I don't think that's what the Force is all about. The Force is a celebration of life in all its aspects. The physical world is a part of the larger whole, not something separate from it.

 

By saying "You will not stop me! Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." I figured by "me" he might mean the Sith line.

In other words, "Even if you defeat me, Yoda, nobody will be able to defeat Darth Vader, so the Sith will continue to rule."

And/or "If you defeat me here, Vader will still eventually figure out how to revive me."