What's your problem with feminists?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by womberty, Aug 16, 2002.

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  1. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    From the "Selective Services" thread...

    Rebecca191:
    Have you even heard some of the things extreme modern feminists have said?


    farraday:
    To go off an the growing tangent it amazes me how some feminist are more virulent sexist then the majority of the men they deride.

    Thats another debate though.



    So, let's debate it! Give me some examples and we'll get started. :)
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Are you sure Rebecca and farraday don't mind their opinions being put up for all to see in the first post (without the accompanying context)?

    Also, this doesn't strike me so much as a debate about feminists as it is a place to take shots at them. If you want to debate the value of feminism, that's one thing. If you want to discuss why they aren't good, that's another.
  3. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't mind.

    But I have two problems with modern feminists. One is that some of them want more rights than men. The other is that they put down women who chose to give up their careers and stay home and raise their children. I've seen firsthand that raising young children can be far more difficult than many jobs.
  4. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Rebecca, what is it that you're referring to exactly? I've met plenty of feminists who just wants equal rights and equal pay, and who believe that being a housewife is just as valid as being a doctor.
  5. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    I think the idea behind feminisms is good. (Allow women to have an equal opportunity to get jobs, etc).

    The practice of feminism is waaaay to extreme. Modern feminism goes so far as to minimize the importance of men, stay-at-home moms, and some important traditional roles women have.

    As Rebecca pointed out, there are some feminists who go as far as to look down on those who decide to stay at home and raise their kids. It's an attitude that exists with extremist feminists.

    I will never be a feminists (although I'm for equal pay, rights). But I'm not going to stop them either. Perhaps their extreme will bring about some good changes and their views will eventually be more moderate rather than extreme.
  6. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I think the issue is getting a little confused here. The actual definition of feminism is someone that believes in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. Being a feminist does not mean that you hold yourself above men or that you devalue stay-at-home moms. I've heard a few people talk like that, but it's certainly not the majority. You could say the same things about any group, really. I could say that I would never consider myself pro-life just because a few pro-lifers have gone crazy and shot up abortion clinics. This is obviously not correct, because there are a lot of people who are pro-life and only a small percentage are this extreme. The same goes for feminists. Believe me, most of us have no problem with a person wanting to stay at home and raise children. We just don't want you to feel like you are being pressured into it.
  7. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Are you sure Rebecca and farraday don't mind their opinions being put up for all to see in the first post (without the accompanying context)?

    Also, this doesn't strike me so much as a debate about feminists as it is a place to take shots at them. If you want to debate the value of feminism, that's one thing. If you want to discuss why they aren't good, that's another.


    I hope farraday doesn't mind... it just seemed like a good opportunity for a new topic, rather than having the other thread go off onto that tangent.

    And it looks like we've started with a good discussion (which is what I was hoping for). :)
  8. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    I guess that is one of the major issues: what is feminism and how do you define it.

    All feminists I've know have been too radical for my taste. I've not met a single one that has inspired me or that I even agree with. At least, those who term themselves feminists.

    Most pro-lifers I've met have been normal, concerned people. Hence I have no problem being termed a pro-lifer myself.

    That's probably where the bias comes from on my part.
  9. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think wanting equal workplace rights, and equal pay, makes you a feminist neccesarrily. Why can't it just be, I don't know, an equalist?
  10. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    I don't mind at all, nor does my publicist.
    Everytime I get quoted my publicist gets a raise.



  11. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think wanting equal workplace rights, and equal pay, makes you a feminist neccesarrily.

    Well, those are the sorts of things that feminists claim to support. So what other things have you heard feminists support that you think go beyond equality?
  12. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I already said. Looking down on stay-at-home moms, hating men....
  13. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    From what I've heard and seen, feminists seem to go beyond equality. They're there for the rights of women, and women alone. If women become the superior sex, I don't think they would mind at all. They also don't seem to care much about the rights of men. They're there to promote women, not find the best solution. It's not necessarily bad, just a bit too extreme.

    Now my opinion is probably biased from what I;ve heard and seen. It's probably the radical feminists who make the news and such and the moderate ones don't get heard. But I have yet to meet a moderate feminist.
  14. Maveric Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Anyone who looks down at stay-at-home moms need to take a summer off and stay with some kids. I do every summer, and every night I go to bed earlier than I do when I am at work, as it is more stressful and exhausting than any work I have ever done.
  15. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I've never watched kids as a full-time job or anything, but I've been babysitting for two years, and even for just a few hours at a time it can be quite exhausting. Especially when the kids fight with each other, or the little ones cry and nothing seems to stop it.

    From what I've heard and seen, feminists seem to go beyond equality. They're there for the rights of women, and women alone. If women become the superior sex, I don't think they would mind at all. They also don't seem to care much about the rights of men. They're there to promote women, not find the best solution. It's not necessarily bad, just a bit too extreme.

    I definitley agree with this.
  16. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I already said. Looking down on stay-at-home moms, hating men....

    Do you have any specific examples, or a quote?

    I think a lot of feminists are trying to change public perception, and to show that women can hold jobs other than housewife. The idea that a woman's only use is for bearing and raising children is what feminists are against. They don't (or at least they shouldn't) say that it is wrong for a woman to stay at home with her children to make sure they are raised properly. The problem is when all women are expected to do so. Perhaps what we need is a few more househusbands....
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think a lot of feminists are trying to change public perception, and to show that women can hold jobs other than housewife.

    I don't think this is a perception shared by many these days.

  18. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think this is a perception shared by many these days.

    You haven't been to my hometown. :)

    There are still people who assign women to traditional roles of homemaker, teacher, and nurse. While things have improved greatly in the past few decades, women are still considered inferior for certain jobs, such as military service, and are descriminated against in the workplace (not in all, but in many, I'm sure).

  19. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    If women are considered inferior for military service, well it's only because, physically, they are not as strong as men, and I don't think anything can change that. Sure, you have some strong women, but men are much more likely to be physically stronger.
  20. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Let's consider a different kind of job, like stocking shelves at a grocery store. Do you think a woman can handle that job? I'm sure there are plenty who can. Yet some store managers would rather hire men for the job because they have this perception that the man will be physically more suited for it. Isn't that unfair to the women who might be applying for the same job?
  21. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    I see feminism as a positive progression for society. :) More and more women today are holding down jobs all over the world, particulary in the United States. To me, it's nothing new that women are out there showing their independence in a productive, positive way. In fact, current polls have suggested (err...sorry, don't have a link or anything) that there are more women in the medical field and teaching field than men. Not that men can't perform these tasks as well as women, just that these fields are dominated by women. And also, another poll suggested that women dominate privately owned, small businesses in the United States too. So having women hold down jobs and living out the stereo-typical feministic roles are very good for society and progress. To me, feminism supports the idea of the woman as being an idependent human being and supporting the growth of society, doing their part, apart from the male. A human being with separate thoughts and desires, goals, skills, and dreams for the better good of all. Seeing as how history has taught societies that women can only perform certain tasks, like birthing and rearing children (which is a stero-type, of course), feminism is a necessary and positive way to support an idea of "freedom". There are extreme cases of any idea, I should think. But I don't see feminism as being negative. Only if the results of it are negative.
  22. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    In case anyone's interested, here's a page about salary comparison in 1994. Yes, it is a bit outdated, but I think it illustrates the point well. The disparity between the salaries is precisely what feminists are fighting to change.

    About women being considered inferior: While it is true that a woman may not be as physically strong as a male, that's not really what people talk about when they say that they are discriminated against. The issue is that often times, a woman is just not considered for a job at all because of her gender. It's just as bad as saying that midgets shouldn't serve in the military. No, they're not as big as their tall counterparts, but that doesn't mean that they should be automatically discredited. There is a chance that they could do the job very well. They don't always get the chance to prove it.
  23. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Wars are a life and death matter. We should take people that are definitley fit. There shouldn't be any "giving people a chance" in a situation like that.
  24. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I have a problem with statistics that do not show if time taken off work for child bearing/rearing is taken account of, experience, and years in the field. Secondly, really all it proves is that women are willing to work for less. I know women who make the same wages (or more in some cases) as men in the same positions.
  25. SaberSlinger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 4
    Some feminists are actually very interesting, but when they go beyond wanting equality they tend to annoy me.

    For instance, this whole thing with the NOW getting all excited about Augusta Golf Club (or Country Club, whatever) not allowing female members. For some reason, they think their rights are being violated because they're not being allowed into a private club that has every right to be selective about their membership. Why don't they just open their own women's only country clubs? Would that not make them happy?


    o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------

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