What's your problem with feminists?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by womberty, Aug 16, 2002.

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  1. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Women still make less for the time they are there though, don't they?

    But that's one of the things feminists have tried to change. If women made the same salaries as men, would you still say that the woman should be the one to stay at home with the kids? Equal pay would mean the parents can choose who should do the child-rearing without money being part of the equation.


    Another reason to not swing the pendulum so far to the other side that we glorify jobs that either put women in danger (truck driving) or negate or outright demonize their predisposition towards certain fields (kindergarten teacher).

    I never said we have to tell women what jobs they shouldn't take. The problem is that if things are already skewed (for example, if most people get a woman as their kidnergarten teacher and see only men driving trucks), it's hard to say that children aren't influenced by these types of examples. And that's why, right now, feminists try to put a lot of attention on these differences - so that maybe people will think a little longer and harder about what made them choose one career or another.


    As far as it being the "greatest" job they could have, that is a bit misleading.

    Watch just about any "women's" program, wait for them to get to the part about motherhood, and they will call it the greatest job anyone could ever have. I'm not saying it isn't - but we're only ever saying this to the women.
  2. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    If women made the same salaries as men, would you still say that the woman should be the one to stay at home with the kids?

    If she wants to.

    And due to biology, a woman probably would want to more.
  3. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    womberty,

    Yes, I was agreeing! That's why I said it was misleading. I think anyone with half an IQ point can see Motherhood is the most exhausting job there is.

    Isn't men raising children a bit like kids raising kids??? ;)
  4. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    And due to biology, a woman probably would want to more.

    All biology dictates is that the woman has to carry the child. If societal roles were reversed, the men would probably want to stay at home with the children.
  5. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Ahh, "Motherly instinct" I think they call it. So, has feminism caused women to shift their focus away from motherhood and onto other aspirations such as working? If so, how do you think that this will impact society as a whole? No, you are not required to respond in essay form. ;)
  6. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    No, my dad has always said he was happy to go to work, that it was far easier than when he had to take care of us.
  7. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    You forgot to read the premise: "If societal roles were reversed." If men traditionally stayed home with the children and women were expected to provide for their families, your father would probably want to stay and home and your mother would be happy to go to work.
  8. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think so.

    I think some things are just biology and can't be changed. I think maternal instinct is one of these.
  9. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    Well, you see, Rebecca191, when a mommy and daddy love ea.... um, a stork brings them. Or, like me, they are found floating on rivers in white boats.
  10. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Womberty,

    That would work fine. But then what happens when the men decide that they want to work for themselves. What happens to the children? The answer is daycare. Sadly. Don't take that the wrong way, I realize that since the roles have been skewed it is neccessary, and that is my point. The "liberation" of women via the feminist movement has created a missing social role in many families. I spent many a day in day care and after school programs and I can speak firsthand that I recieved little to no moral guidance and felt no sort of bond with any of my caregivers.
  11. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    It is way too easy to blame feminism for the lack of parents in the household, but the real blame lies with the shift in the economy from labor jobs to service jobs. 30 years ago, a man could get a job and make enough money to support a family, and he would probably stay there the rest of his life. After all the post-WWII related production died down, the economy shifted from producing things that required skilled labor to producing services that didn't. This opened us up to a bunch of "moderate" paying jobs. Today, most jobs do not pay enough to support a family on a one person income. In many cases, women HAVE to work in order for both parents to put food on the table. Let's just take arbitrary average income of 40-60K/year. In many urban areas, this is just enough to scrape by for a family of 4. Most people don't like to scrape by. Now, if you have a man who makes 50k a year and a woman who makes 35k a year (we'll assume she makes less, like part-time work), then you have an income of 95k a year which could allow the family the luxury of living in a condo or a house. So before you blame feminists for the degragation of the family, just remember that there are economics involved as well.
  12. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    chibiangi,

    95k? I bought my first home, a condo, in 1998 for just over 72 thousand dollars. I made, at that time approximatley, 30 thousand dollars and year and my wife took in around 24 thousand dollars. This is before tax dollars mind you. That's 54 thousand dollars and we also both owned two newer cars. It's not that the money isn't available, it's that people are not willing to trade in their Audi's for Honda's in order to better provide for a family. That's my opinion.
  13. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I also said urban areas. Try buying a condo in Los Angeles on a 30k income and you will see what I mean. Economics do play an important role in families.
  14. dustchick Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2000
    star 1
    A couple of points:

    I contend that the hypothesis that women used to spend vastly more time with their children is false. Before the industrialized era, the woman worked as hard as the male to provide for the family, whether it be by baking the daily bread, tilling the fields, milking the cows, etc... Women were not encouraged to work outside the home, but nor were men. And did you ever hear of one of the most commonly diagnosed ailments of wealthy women in the 19th century? Ennui!

    Also, women have held jobs down from the earliest times, including innkeepers, alewives, etc... In our fairly puritanical society, teacher was one of the earliest conventional female professions.

    I inquire of the group mind - What jobs do you think are acceptable for women? I agree that stay-at-home moms are not to be disparaged, but is that the only praiseworthy choice for women in your view?

  15. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    But then where were the kids? I know they weren't being neglected at daycare centers, they weren't watching sex and violence on TV, they weren't scouting for mates at the mall, and they weren't surfing the net. They probably were out there working with their parents, actually.

    I think any job is acceptable for a woman. What are some that aren't supposed to be?
  16. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    They were working with their parents, or if too young, were probably watched by an older sibling or grandparent.
  17. dustchick Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2000
    star 1
    I think my point was too subtle - obviously the children used to be around the family, but do you think they were necessarily getting any more specialized/personalized attention than at a daycare?

    It is a personal pet peeve of mine that we so frequently laud the "golden days of yore", which could also be categorized as the "days of disease and forced child labor."

    And I'm still curious - in your appreciation of stay-at-home moms, do you disparage career women?
  18. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't agree with anyone who chooses to put their kids in daycare. If they have a nanny, or another relative who is watching the kids (like, say, a grandmother) that's fine. But I think daycare is bad for child development. I read an article a while ago (no link, sorry) that children who grew up in daycare tended to be more violent.
  19. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    "but do you think they were necessarily getting any more specialized/personalized attention than at a daycare? "

    But I think there is a difference between your parents working around the house, and being dropped off at a daycare center.

    "It is a personal pet peeve of mine that we so frequently laud the "golden days of yore"

    I'm not a big fan of that myself; I just try to judge things on their own merit.

    "And I'm still curious - in your appreciation of stay-at-home moms, do you disparage career women? "

    Not at all, if kids aren't being neglected.
  20. Jedi_Master_Mom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 2
    I think as long as a woman can pass the same qualifications as men, they can have any job they want. I don't think the qualifications for firefighter, police officer ect should be lowered for women. They job require physical strength. I would trust a male firefighter to pull my family out of a burning building, more then a female.

    My main problem with feminists is they tell women you can have everything...a career and a family and nothing will suffer. Once you have children something has to give...either your children will suffer or you career. I strongly believe that one parent should be home for the children, especially the first 5 years. I can live with a grandparent or other close relative, but a child really needs one on one attention and care from someone who loves them.

    I'm a stay at home mom of 3 kids. If I could make more money then my husband I would work after my 6 month old daughter is weaned. My husband makes about 40k a year, we dont live in a big city, we own our own home, bought newer used vehicles and still have some money for a computer PS2 and the nice extras that make life fun. Life would be alot easier if I was working, money wouldn't be so tight, but life would not be better for our children. Once you have children everything you do has to be what is best for them.
  21. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Well said Jedi Master Mom. I agree with you whole-heartedly(sp?).


  22. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Bravo Jedi-Master_Mom! I don't even want to have children if we can't arrange for one of us to be home with them until they are at least school age. Heck, I hate leaving my cats when I go to work in the morning, I can't fathom dropping an infant off at even a relative's for the day, much less daycare.

    Most people would not want to leave their car with strangers to care for as they wish for 8 hours a day, yet they have no compunction about doing just that with their children.

    It boggles the mind.
  23. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    The common phrase is:

    "Part-time jobs, Part-time mothers"

    Take it as you will.
  24. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    And what does that make fathers with full-time jobs?
  25. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    The common term would be:

    "Providers"

    Not that I would agree with either of those phrases.
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