Lit When do we get a book about Palpatine training Vergere?

Better planned that what followed for sure. I do think, though, that the series was naturally building towards something than the destruction of the Vong. It really comes into view by the latter half of things but the moral questions the Jedi face purposely set them up as foils to the Vong's fanaticism. That's why we have things like the philosophical difference between Luke and Kyp, for instance. There was always a tension of what solution was the proper one.

We get this as early as Jedi Eclipse as well. Do we use Centerpoint or not? When Thrackan uses it, he also destroys most of the Hapan Fleet. Total war, the war of annihilation is shown to be self destructive. Now, that book suffers a bit in properly presenting the moral quandary (which is disappointing because Luceno's usually more deft than that) but that's one of the questions throughout the book and the series. And it's set up pretty early and keeps up. Consider why the series even has the Bothans declare Ar'krai. It's not for kicks.

 

Interesting, same source material, totally different conclusions.

Given how it marketed itself and how nasty the story had consistently been, I was expecting something far nastier - the Shamed Ones may get saved but not without a massively bloody battle with fanatical true believer warriors. It wouldn't have been genocide by design, but that likely would have been the accumlated outcome of the bulk of the Vong fighting to the death.

Kyp I remain convinced got done over as he, better than nearly anyone, knows there is a line that can't be crossed. In a desire to atone he may well be willing to go right up to it, but not over it.

 

I actually found the hints pretty heavy-handed so far but on the other hand I already knew how it was going to end when I started reading.

 

That's one point you're likely to get little in the way of disagreement on!

Interesting thing about Centepoint is its use, even disastrously, did stop the Vong dead in their tracks for a time. If it had been used more effectively it may have impacted them so severely that even the likes Lah and Shimmraa may have reconsidered their invasion plans, would that have been more merciful? Hard to say, it would have taken a great deal of Vong deaths and probably multiple strikes to do so.

 

I find it hard to imagine Yoda or Obi-Wan condoning the use of Centerpoint Station.

 

Centerpoint was basically long-ranged artillery.

 

My point was: the Vong warriors could be neutralized in other ways. Would you rather do that, or would you rather kill them? If you'd rather neutralize them without killing them, then that's showing compassion to the Vong before they're defeated. That was the point of my argument.

And the point of the NJO was clearly building to the redemption of the Yuuzhan Vong since the beginning, that was what Jacen's entire journey was about. And the Vong definitely weren't monolithic, the books and books we got on the inside of their society, their internal divisions, their several defectors, shows that.

 

As Jedi they're not going to like it at all. BUT if using it stops the Vong war effort dead and it is killing millions to save trillions, what then?

There is no shortage of problems with utilitarianism and its offshoots such as consequentialism, but it is also, when you get right down to it, a moral philosophy suited to war. If there had been better practical options war wouldn't be needed at all would it?

Although there's a question right there - if the GFFA is the size it is, there really should have been enough room for everyone, especially after you factor in the Vong's terraforming abilities.

 

And it's a nice idea but I don't see, with the way the story was presented, with the sheer power attributed to the Vong, relative to the GFFA that they stomped for 2-3 years, that it was in the least bit possible to actually do it. How would an NR Admiral actually sell the idea, in any form, to anyone? Remember the Vong were utterly relentless in their invasion and occupation.

 

Centerpoint is longrange artillery. With artillery the risk of friendly fire is always there but I think the Republic still uses it because of risk/reward calculations. That's why I didn't quite understood the fuzz around centerpoint. It is just bigger space artillery.

 

Compassion isn't always practical. Jedi are not utilitarian and the series centers on Jedi. Luke is relieved when Vergere tells him the Vong deserve compassion because his duty as a Jedi involves a duty to life. This does not mean putting down arms. But it also doesn't mean killing and killing and killing while saying that it's for a good cause or acceptable because you are dispassionate about it. For all the talk about Vergere being for ends above means, it's almost the opposite entirely.

 

Luke had no problems with killing in the OT though. What with Leia threatening to blow up Jabba's palace and him destroying the death star and risking the death of his friends in the resulting blast.

I was surprised when I started NJO and the Jedi were so reluctant to fight back.

 

They're not. They're quicker to respond than the New Republic. And they don't necessarily regret killing either. They question if they need to become like their enemy to defeat them. This is a natural thing for a Jedi to fear because the implications of mass death are necessarily dark.

 

Okay, folks, we're way off topic at this point. If you'd like to continue this line of discussion, you should create a new thread.