When JW wrote the Star Wars score...

Did he realise how big the film would be?

Let me give you the background to why I ask this. I'm currently MP3ing my CDs and have just got to Forrest Gump, and so I listened to the main theme.

I thought "Wow, this is fantastic music", but then found I was asking myself "Is that better than Silverstri's normal writing because he knew it would be a great film, or do I like the score better because the film was successful?"

I suppose the question I'm asking is "Does the film make a good score, or does the score make a good film?"

If you look at the "great films", the scores do tend to be some of the composer's finest music (Star Wars, ET, Forrest Gump, Titanic - the list is endless), but if the film is a duff, the scores also seem to reflect this.

Do composers know how good films will be and put more/less effort into the score based on this?

We all talk about JW scores, but tend to only mention those films which have rated high in the box office. No one seems to mention Home Alone (oscar nominated), the Witches of Eastwick (also oscar nominated), Far and Away and the like.

As musicians, what do you think? Is there a correlation between a good score and a box-office hit? Surely people don't go to see a film for a second time because of the score, so there must be something else in it. No one expected Star Wars to be a box-office hit, but the score is generally regarded as phenomenal. Did JW know something we didn't? Or if the film was a flop, would the score have been equally as forgotten?

I think this is an interesting point to discuss, and I would love to hear your thoughts

 

"Does the film make a good score, or does the score make a good film?"

The latter. For instance, try watching Jaws sometime without the music on. The score takes the film to the next level.

 

This is a very interesting thread and topic and I think about this a lot. Composers are often the first people besides the producer, the director and the editor to see the film. It takes real talent, an appreciation of the nuances of the story and it's dramatic/comedic moments and tremendous musical talent to write a great score. It's a huge responsibility.

Well, when John Williams first watched STAR WARS I suppose it was late 1975 or early 1976 and remember, no one knows what a wookie is, no one has ever heard of Darth Vader, and I'll bet that not all of the effects or sound(R2's beeps and so forth) are in. And he watches this rough version of this crazy space movie and IMAGINES that score to accompany what he sees on the screen. Lucas told him it was to be a throwback to adventure films of the past and that it should have a romantic, sweeping score a la Max Steiner.

About the only thing I ever saw John Williams say about the original film in terms of it's potential was that he thought it might do good business for a couple of weekends. That's it.
He did his work in a vacuum, just like Lucas. He had no idea what the public response would be. I remember the summer the film came out, and I recall the madness and excitement that swept the country.

But a LOT OF PEOPLE who saw the film before Williams score was part of it(Lucas's friends, studio executives, other directors) had low opinions of it. Spielberg was one of the most positive reactions but even he didn't think it would be a GIANT hit.

I've said this before on the internet and I believe it to be true. I read somewhere that before William's score was added, there were some 20th century Fox executives who thought the film was so bad, they wanted to cut it into short pieces and run it on Saturday morning televison as a serial. They thought it was that goofy and childish. After William's score was added, everything changed and that idea was dropped. William's music lifted that movie, as he does on many of the films he works on, to a whole new level.

I have also wondered what it would be like to view Edward Scissorhands without the music, or Gone with the Wind, or To Kill a Mockingbird, and particularly Lawrence of Arabia. All of those composers saw something on the screen that sparked their creativity and inspired them to do great work. I wish the average movie fan on the street would grow to appreciate fully the challenge that film composers face when they watch a film before it has any music. It is both a challenge...and an opportunity.

 

Very intersting thread

Personally, I believe that you like the score according to what your "cup of tea" is. For example, I am not really a history or romantic buff, therefore I do not like "The Patriot" or "Sabrina" (although I did like the movie "Sabrina" for some reason). However, I am a BIG sci-fi/fantasy/adventure fan, and therefore love the music to "Star Wars", "Indiana Jones", and "Hook" (although I think the score to "Hook" is an entity unto itself, and a very good one at that).

As to whether the composer composes the score for a movie based on the prospective success of a film, I would have to disagree. There have been many unsuccessful films which have had outstanding scores ("Stargate" comes to my mind readily, but there are many other examples that I am sure you posters can come up with).

The point is that a composer will write a score based on what is given to him. In this vein, it is well-known that both Speilberg and Lucas are Classical music buffs, and they both get heavily involved in helping John Williams write a score (i.e. providing vivid imagery and examples from other classical peices or movie scores). It is for this reason that most GL and SS collaborations with JW are fruitfull. Other movie directors could give less than a hoot about the scores, and give little for wh

Also, JW being the genius he is helps him out alot!

 

A good score can vastly improve a bad film.
ex: Dragonheart

A good score can be great and still not improve a film.
ex: Cutthroat Island

A good score can be boost a good film to "the next level"
ex: StarGate and Conan the Barbarian

Apparently, David Arnold did something that the StarGate makers had never seen before: he actually went to the different actors and talked to them about their takes on their characters so that he could best represent them musically.

 

"Apparently, David Arnold did something that the StarGate makers had never seen before: he actually went to the different actors and talked to them about their takes on their characters so that he could best represent them musically. "

cool!

 

David Arnold did the same for Independence Day, Godzilla and Tomorrow Never Dies. He's a heavily involved composer who wants to know the last detail so that he can make crap movies sound better.

Well, they're not really crappy movies but all popcorn movies are crap but good and fun to watch.

 

Ah, truly a thread worthy of some thoughtful discussion.

To answer your initial question, perhaps JW simply vastly outdid himself when he created the Star Wars score. Some of the music, eg the force theme - is almost ethereal.

Someone already stole my thunder by mentioning Dragonheart - a film with a truly monumental musical theme which most people fall in love with immediately. (Especially the song from Dragonheart called 'To The Stars')

I think the Star Wars theme has a lot more to do with peoples' liking of SW than what accepted or realised. Why? Our (almost) universal appreciation of the music is subconsciously on our minds' whenever we think of Star Wars.

A similar thing happened to me recently with a stunningly beautiful song entitled 'Alegria' by Rene Dupere, which is featured in the Cirque Du Soleil. Upon listenin to this song it uplifts your opinion of everything it is related to, whether you consciously realise it or not.

BTW, anyone who has a love for inspirational music should make this song a must have.

Can anyone think of any other songs that fall in the same league as the Star Wars theme?

Things like Chariots of Fire, Bulgers Dream, Pachebels Canon in D etc..

 

Cirque Du Soleil

If that's the show I'm thinking of, it really unnerved me watching. Not the music, but the other stuff.

 

I don't want to seperate the film from the score because they're intertwined. However, scores do 'complement' the films and vice versa(?). Example: A bad film with a good score can often be forgotten while a good film with a bad score will likely not be forgotten.


i think the Hardcore score fans remember great scores from obscure films. I do think the score and film are intertwined but the film carries more weight.

 

I think David Arnold's score for Independence Day is one of most rousing and memorable scores of the decade. Even comparable to Star Wars and Indiana Jones. I yearn for a 2-disc edition because there was a lot of unused material on the CD that was released. As I understand it, there is a bootleg available.

I read on filmtracks.com (anyone read that site? very informative) that Arnold broke off his collaboration with Emmerich and Devlin after the Godzilla fiasco. Emmerich did not even bother to release a album of the score, but instead released a ridiculous soundtrack album of various songs (Goo Goo Dolls, etc). Only two tracks were of Arnold's score, and they did not exemplify its' best aspects. I can imagine how that would be frustrating and insulting to a composer, and I don't blame Arnold.

In fact, I see his departure as Emmerich's loss. Because of the grandeur and patriotism the ID4 score invokes, I believe it is of the type mentioned earlier in this thread which elevated the movie above what it otherwise might have been. And same with Stargate, though I think the ID4 score is superior. As for the Godzilla score, it is good but not featured as prominently in the film. Arnold has said he had a difficult time writing it because of the quality of the film itself, and I can understand that.

 

Good topic. I've wondered about this from time to time, and I think the quality of the film and the caliber of the director play a great deal. In Star Wars' case it's true no one had an idea whether the film would've worked back in 1977, but I think John Williams was fortunate (and us) to be linked to this ambitious but uncertain project called "Star Wars", and luckily George had an appreciation for music too (he wrote the screenplays while listening to classical music).

For one thing, right off the bat George Lucas envisioned these as sweeping "space operas" and silent films, where music is important. John was amazed at how George was very meticulous, and methodical, and knew exactly what he was looking for (which was good). For instance, George wanted every major character to have a theme of their own like in "Peter and the Wolf." What Lucas does well is treat the film score as equally, if not more importantly, as other cinematic aspects such as editing, special FX, cinemtatography, costumes, etc...Here, Lucas spends a lot of time with Williams and offers plenty of input and feedback on what needs improvement or what's working perfectly.....say maybe a section needs to be sped up a tad or slowed down, etc....A lesser director would've been too indecisive or apathetic and probably would've neglected the musical scoring. A composer needs some guidance and direction so they know the work they're doing will satisfy the director. The last thing a director should be saying to a their compsoer is, "Um, I don't know...do whatever you want to do." Sometimes allowing a composer freedom is good as well, but they need some input. Just like a baskeball player who needs guidance from his coach. That's why a good director is a big plus. (Though there are exeptions -- some composers have created masterpieces with very little guidance needed, like Ennio Morricone and Nino Rota....a couple composers off the top of my head)

And I think it's not a coincedence that a lot of our greatest films have had magnificent scores to accompany them. Lawrence of Arabia, Gone With the Wind, Star Wars, and the Godfather, to name a few. Looking at these films, I don't think it was a fluke that the score "just happened to be good" but these are high-caliber films where nearly every aspect is done so marvelously -- the acting, screenplay, cinematography, sets and costumes....these are signs a good, competant director is holding the reigns of the picture and that they're wise enough (thank goodness) to pay attention to the scoring aspects and treat is as an equal component of a film, not a thing to be tacked on to the side at the last second, which unfortunately occurs on many other films that deserved better [insert lackluster film here]. Film music IS important. It works just like the dialogue sometimes, and it creates an infinite variety of moods similar to the way colors, camera angles, and set designs do.

And even if these great directors didn't particularly understand music too well, just the quality and prestige of the film they're working serves as a great influence and a motivator for everyone involved. When you're working with a respected director like Steven Spielberg on a film like Schindler's List, you WANT to do your best work. I would guess John Williams was honored to be chosen to score the "next Spielberg film" or something popular like Harry Potter or important like Saving Private Ryan.

JW said in an interview, in response to the question "Where do you get all these ideas from? Where does it spring from?" And Williams said most of the time it comes from the moment he's in the screening room and looking at the silent images in the dark. It's there that he draws from the quality of the images and that's where the challenge and fun starts for him. So even JW admits it sometimes depends on how powerful the images are on-screen.....sometimes they speak to him and it's becomes easier for him to translate the drama and emotions musically.

 

Good post JW, but it raises some questions from me

I think the quality of the film and the caliber of the director play a great deal.

GL was a relative unknown in 1977. True, he had a hit with American Graffiti, but he was still an unknown quantity

I don't think it was a fluke that the score "just happened to be good" but these are high-caliber films where nearly every aspect is done so marvelously -- the acting, screenplay, cinematography, sets and costumes....these are signs a good, competant director is holding the reigns of the picture and that they're wise enough (thank goodness) to pay attention to the scoring aspects and treat is as an equal component of a film

Not sure I agree here. A Few Good Men is a fantastic film. Superb screenplay, excellent casting, amazing performances. Yet who recalls the score?

When you're working with a respected director like Steven Spielberg on a film like Schindler's List, you WANT to do your best work.

Yes, I agree. But see above. GL was not a respected director (and to this day he still isn't, even amongst SW fans!) And what about Lost World? IMHO (and many others) this is a JW score which is severely lacking in quality. But some would see (me included) that this reflects the film.

Now the question is, Do I not like the score because of the film, or do I not like the film because of the score. There IS a definite correlation between the two - even to none-musicians (with exceptions, Dragonheart)

Lost World is a good example here. People who know nothing about scores don't like this film. People who do know about scores don't like the score. This is a prime example of how bad films and bad scores go hand in hand. It is rare to have a good film/bad score and vice versa. So how does the composer know that a film will be bad. Surely the director doesn't say "This film is gonna suck, so don't put too much effort into it" One would assume that director will think the film is good, otherwise they wouldn't agree to do it in the first place.

Please, carry on discussing. All your responses have been fascinating, and some of the most mature I think these forums have seen in a long while

 

I read on filmtracks.com (anyone read that site? very informative) that Arnold broke off his collaboration with Emmerich and Devlin after the Godzilla fiasco. Emmerich did not even bother to release a album of the score, but instead released a ridiculous soundtrack album of various songs (Goo Goo Dolls, etc).

I'll get back on topic soon, but I thought that Arnold actually did the score for The Patriot, but they didn't like it or something and so got John Williams to redo it. Can anyone confirm that?

Also, it's a shame, but apparently they're doing the same thing to John Debney's score for the Scorpion King, only releasing a "songs" CD and not a score soundtrack.

 

I actually despise the work that David Arnold is doing on the Bond films now. At the moment, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it; but in twenty years it's going to date the movie horribly. The great thing about the scores John Barry did for the Bond films he worked on is that the scores still sound contemporary.

 

I hate it when "soundtracks' don't have a musical score. I mean, I'd buy the CDs of the artists if I wanted it.

 

I agree with the prevalent comment on the board - good scores can help so-so movies out, and can take good movies to the "next level".

Anyone in the mood for a little philosophy? Therefore, the converse; bad scores can kill so-so movies and can take good movies to horrid depths, ought to be discussed also.

Methinks there are a lot of o.k. films that were basically sunk by the score, but some names don't come to mind yet.

 

Therefore, the converse; bad scores can kill so-so movies and can take good movies to horrid depths, ought to be discussed also.

Absolutely. The thing that all those countless Halloween sequels and clones (Friday the 13th, I'm talking to you!) never realized is that it was that scary music that made that movie. Without the music the movie wouldn't have been half so scary or moody as it was.

 

OMG, a MAstadge sighting!

 

Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, I LOVE your sig!

 

I actually despise the work that David Arnold is doing on the Bond films now. At the moment, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it; but in twenty years it's going to date the movie horribly. The great thing about the scores John Barry did for the Bond films he worked on is that the scores still sound contemporary.


Give him a break, think how bad Eric Serra's score for GoldenEye was even when it was first released. But the movie was good with or without that particular score anyway.

 

I read an interview with George Lucas once in the August 1977 collectors edition of ROLLING STONE. I remember he commented that he was VERY VERY PLEASED with the score. He mentioned he especially liked the music cue prior to the jump to light speed.