PT When was it too late to save Anakin?

As early as the Phantom Menace, we see hints that Anakin is heading down a dark path. But as we see from Luke, a Jedi turning to the dark side can be stopped, and turned around. During the prequels, was it always too late to stop Anakin from turning, or could something have been done at any point? To me, it was too late once he met Padme on Tatooine.

 

If I had to pinpoint one main event as a catalyst for Anakin's turn to the dark side, it would actually be Qui-Gon's death. Without a secure father figure there for him, Anakin gravitates towards Palpatine, and is led by Obi-Wan, who is unprepared to train someone like Anakin. Both scenarios turn out rather poorly, though Obi-Wan manages the best he can, with mixed results.

However, if I had to pinpoint the very last moment Anakin had before deciding not to turn, although archetypically it would be his choice to stop Mace from killing Palpatine (the ultimate "choice" moment that everything centers around), I would actually say it's when Anakin goes to Yoda for help. Anakin opens up to Yoda about his problems and fear of losing Padme. When that fails, and Yoda doesn't get through to Anakin, that's really the last time we see Anakin open up like that to anyone. It's the last time he really asks anyone for help.

 

Never.

 

Considering he was saved in Episode 6, I think the answer is self-evident... aka what CT-867-5309 said (and great, now that song is in my head again).

 

Anakin's turn seemed inevitable, he had developed the emotions that a Jedi should not have. And I know Luke was older and he resisted, but Anakin's mind wasn't as strong.

 

Yeah, i'd probably say once he left his mother. The regret and sadness was just a portion of Anakin's ghosts to come.

 

I don't see how leaving his mother somehow guaranteed Anakin's fall.

 

Obviously, the OP is talking about when was it too late to save Anakin before his fall. It's clear in the movies that he does get redeemed, so simply dismissing the question is tantamount to not understanding it. Clearly the OP knows that Anakin got redeemed eventually, so it was always possible to save him. That is plain to anyone. The question is, as far as I understand it, about when Anakin could be prevented from going down the dark path and committing to it in the first place. Obviously everyone has the ability to choose things but Anakin did not live in a mental vacuum, he was not like a robot where every alternative was as easily available as any other. Anyone who has known or researched troubled individuals knows that even though "good" options may be in front of their own eyes, troubled or even semi-healthy people may not see it because they are blinded by something very significant -- something that can't be removed by sheer willpower or persuasion. Removing those blinds requires an insight, a breakthrough -- either an emotional one or a mental one. And usually they are connected. The mind is complex in that way.

Point being, once he turned to the dark side, Anakin wasn't always realistically able to "go back" because there were powerful mental beliefs about himself, his life, and others that stood in the way of that. Sure, we can say in a perfect fantasy world, of course Anakin would see his wrongdoing and could change at any time. But that's not how the mind works. To think so is equivalent to not understanding human psychology. To think Vader could (or would) just freely change on a dime out of sheer willpower or random "choice" is just as much fantasy as the idea that pigs can fly. How can a person really make a choice if they can't even see their options very clearly? Or themselves? Or anything? Everything in Vader's mind is distorted at that point. And considering his whole psychology at that point is ridden with shame, guilt, rage, and self-hatred, along with the fact that his only real mentor/model for behavior at that point is Palpatine, things just get worse and worse. Like so many troubled individuals, Vader just isolates himself and acts out. He's not thinking straight. There's next to no chance he's gonna just change for the better in such a horrid & desolate psychological environment, with basically no positive connections to speak of. I mean, the man squarely blames himself for the death of his mother & of his wife, the two people he loved the most. It's hard to imagine how much that must screw a person up.

Just as there are facts about the real world, there are emotional and psychological facts too. And the fact is, until the mental restraints on Anakin were lifted, you were not gonna see him change or go back to the light. Just not gonna happen. Change doesn't start simply with a choice, it starts before that, when the heart or mind makes a connection. And that requires a breakthrough. Could he do it alone? Possible, but doubtful, especially given the nature of his psychological damage. You can't force a breakthrough -- it has to come through you, to you. You have to get it that way. Anakin/Vader in particular needed someone else to get through to him, and until Luke, that never happened. Luke was unique in that respect. Luke being his son and one of his last links to Padme and better times no doubt helped significantly with that.

The prequels show the various levels of psychological "cement" drying within Anakin. His beliefs about himself and others are being formed and are solidifying. And I believe the question is, when is the last point at which the cement was not dry yet? Where's the last point before Faust gives himself over to Mephistopheles? Once that contract is signed within, once the cement is dry, so to speak, you really need some serious work to change that. Usually a person can't do it themselves; in fact, I'm tempted to say "almost always" a person needs outside help. Humans aren't built to just deal with things all on their own. And who's gonna help Darth Vader? He'd probably try to kill them anyway just for trying.

The whole saga is about the power of choices, yes, but we also see the power of circumstance and upbringing, the power of one's surroundings and conditioning. And you can't just switch off decades of conditioning by sheer willpower, it requires more than that. The change we see when Anakin is redeemed is brought about by a connection, an awakening, from Luke to inside Anakin's own heart and mind. It's something unpredictable, something at that point Vader couldn't have readily done himself, touching something inside Vader long forgotten -- something necessary for transformation. Connection and insight. Realization. Opening up. And Vader can thank Luke for that -- and he certainly does in his own way at the end, because he knows that without Luke he couldn't really have done it on his own, because until Luke showed up, Vader was firmly entrenched.

I mean, I mentioned his horrid psychological (and literal) environment earlier. It's basically like a deadening hell for him always until Luke shows up. Before that, and even a little after, Anakin is just not thinking straight. He's honestly so messed up inside that I don't think he can see things clearly or healthily at all, let alone make a positive choice for himself. Luke, in retrospect, must have seemed like manna from heaven. Because until Luke showed up, Vader's entrenched and nothing inside him is changing for the better anytime soon.

So, yes, back to the main question: while obviously Anakin was never 100% hopeless, we can certainly say there was a point at which that percentage increased dramatically -- where he really became entrenched. And that's, I think, the point of asking this question in this thread -- what was that turning point? -- and it's a question worth treating seriously.

 

When Obi-Wan dipped out the back door at Dex's diner and left Anakin to pay the bill....

 

Obviously.

I didn't dismiss it. I thought about it and posted my conclusion.

I'm sticking with it.

I don't think Anakin was stuck on his path in the prequels. I don't think his fall is inevitable even at the start of ROTS. Things can still work out at that point. It's not a guaranteed disaster. Things can still go well for him, he can still learn and improve, and make good choices that would set him on a better path. He still has a very legitimate capacity to make choices. He has very difficult choices to make in ROTS, but he can still make them. We can see this in his struggles with his options and his choices, he's almost 50/50 on them, and he instantly regrets the choice he makes.

I really don't think Anakin is even stuck after he chooses Palpatine. It's not yet too late at that point, though Anakin thinks it is. I think it's still possible and reasonable (though very difficult), even from Anakin's pov, to turn back even after that point. It's not until after he's put in the suit do I think Vader is stuck on his path. After that, there's no saving him until Luke shows up.

 

I think you are 100% correct in your assessment! Everything is Anakin's choice, nothing is predetermined.

As you said, the key is that we see Anakin struggle with his decisions even after making them. He knows what he has done is wrong, but, he has chosen his own emotional happiness over what is right. "What have I done", the sullen silence as he ignites his lightsaber in front of the Padawans, tears after he massacres the Separatists leadership, the realization that he killed Padme.

All things he could have stopped himself, listened to what Yoda had told him, but, he refused. He put his own emotional happiness and greed before the Jedi, before the Republic, and even before Padme.

 

I didn't say anything was predetermined. Not my point at all.

Bingo. And there it is.

Speaking more generally: Anakin was not at any point predetermined towards anything; I don't think the Force works like that and besides which I don't believe in that sort of thing. However, all things form as a result of other things, and the truth is that we have to take into account what Anakin himself thinks. That's what I've attempted to do. I could say, yes, what if Anakin somehow chose at this point otherwise, but just think what it would require for Anakin to do that. I mean, I'm thinking of the underpinning of it all, not just the choice itself. For Anakin (and especially Vader) to change, it means challenging some foundational beliefs he has -- some from the Jedi, some from the Sith, some from his own experience. And most people aren't challenging their own beliefs all the time. And Anakin's beliefs go deep. His fear of losing Padme (and all that motivates him to prevent her death) goes back to his fear of losing his mother, and his horrible experience with that. And once you open that avenue, you enter a whole pandora's box of Anakin's psychology. I think early on there's some room to work with that as Anakin is growing, but only a few things are gonna be able to make a dent in that as time continues to go on, especially once he's in the suit and especially when he's cut off from sources of any support system.

Part of the problem with challenging those beliefs or emotional wiring he has is a lot of it is unconscious. Some of these beliefs are beliefs he doesn't even know he has; some are even emotional beliefs wired into his whole psychology. It's not a matter of easy or difficult, it's a matter of "does he see it?" or "does he not?" So it's not just challenging them, but having an insight or realization. An emotional one. In other words, that part of the equation is not under Anakin's control. We can't control what we realize and what we don't, although we can control if we are open to new information to allow us to have a breakthrough -- and even that is conditioned subconsciously.

Basically I take the middle position. We do have some degree of choice. But we also have a lot of subconscious framing that puts all that in a certain context -- usually a context that is fairly solid (though there is a little flexibility). We all act according to what we think and what makes sense in our own worldview. Anakin is the same, and it took years to form for him. So, going by that, I can say certainly it becomes harder and harder as Anakin grows to shake him out of his path. Does it mean it's inevitable? No, I don't think anything is inevitable. But it is more likely that Anakin will do what he does because it logically {and emotionally} follows for him to do so. In order for him to do otherwise, it would have to make sense to him logically {and/or emotionally}, and once you start thinking about that and what that would actually entail, the options narrow as you go further down in the series. I'm also referring to his time in the suit. I really truly think that Luke was a saving grace for him, because it opened up his eyes to a part of himself that had really shut itself down. Anakin literally watches Luke go from light to dark and come back. I can think of nothing more world-changing to an action-oriented person like Anakin than literally seeing his own son do what he was told his whole life was impossible.

But back to pre-suit Ani: Personally, I think the moment Anakin stops reaching out is a crucial one. This is why I mentioned his meeting with Yoda going so poorly. I think at that point Anakin realizes the Jedi -- his largest support network -- can't help him anymore*. And when a person shuts down like Anakin did, we've seen time and time again -- in all manner of human expression, from science to art to life itself -- that things usually take a turn for the worst if they don't come back and re-connect. And Anakin is no exception to that general principle, I think.

*- In some respects, he is correct -- the Jedi are not well-equipped to deal with Anakin's lifestyle or emotions. I personally have a low opinion of how Yoda handled that situation, though I don't know what else I could expect from Yoda given his beliefs, conditioning, and overall worldview. Plus, Yoda probably doesn't have a huge amount of experience with dealing with special cases like Anakin.

 

There were lots of little things that lead him down the path but I would say the point he can't come back from (or rather, would not come back from) was Palpatine telling him there was a way to save Padme. Once Palpatine says that (and Yoda explains the Jedi philosophy would be to let her go) Anakin is pretty much always going to sign up with Palpatine over the Jedi.

Morally his crossing the line was murdering the children. Regardless of how sympathetic or not he'd been before, once he's a child-killer he's got to suffer some kind of punishment before redemption holds any kind of meaning - for me, anyway.

 

I think living as a quad-amputee, roasted alive and stuck in a clunky iron suit for 24 years, being absorbed in self-hatred for what you've done is suffering enough, don't you think?

 

Agree to disagree on that point. Once more I feel like I need to again stress that by no means do I think people are necessarily trapped by their emotions: with that said, I think it is indisputable that we all have a framework that we operate from. Beyond that, it goes still deeper: psychology, conditioning, personality, and all. It's complex. I guess my simple answer to all of this is that there is no simple answer. There may be answers to these things, but a full analysis would include a whole life.

 

DARTHLINK Of course, I am just saying that as far as I am concerned that was entirely deserved by him. As to whether we can be/are controlled by emotions, people with various personality disorders (myself amongst them) can be very much impelled by emotions over rational thoughts and have logical processes outside of the norm. Anakin is of course not confirmed as having any disorders but I seem to recall several pretty convincing arguments that he could be. If nothing else, his childhood as a slave left some genuine mental scars that affected his later personality to some degree, as did the death of his mother in such traumatising fashion.

 

I think it was too late after the Jedi Temple raid. There is no coming back from killing children.

 

Well, he did come back from that, right? Just 20-something years later.

At a certain point, no matter what your past was or your experience, you are accountable for your reactions. I can't tell you how many crappy people doing crappy things have used the excuse that they had a bad childhood or they had been hurt before or whatever. It doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their actions. It's not an excuse, full stop.

Anakin was aware that what he was doing was wrong and he did it anyway, time and time again. He was fully responsible for everything and he could have and should have never gone that far. He could have made the choice not to at any time and he did not.

 

I tend to agree with this sentiment. And doing everything in my power not to mention drone strikes and bring real world politics in this. But yes, killing children is my personal threshold of "this person is not only unsaveable, I wouldn't try even if they were."

 

I'd say after his mother died and he killed the Tuskens

 

since that morning Obi-Wan gave him waffles instead of pancakes...that was the point of no return.

But yeah, Anakin always had the potential to turn back to the good side anytime he wanted to. Luke was the key that did it, but he wasn't the only "key".