PT When was it too late to save Anakin?

Nobody said it was too late to stop Anakin from turning. What some characters believed was that it was too late after he turned. Could something be done? Yes, Anakin could have listened to the Jedi and train himself to let go of his fears and attachments.

 

What other Keys where there? Padme could not do it.

 

That's because Sidious used Padme to lure Anakin to the Dark Side to begin with. The irony is that he promised the "power to save the ones he loved from certain death" (visions of her dying in childbirth) to lure him to the Dark Side, yet providing an opportunity to do just that (torturing Luke with Force Lightning) ended up turning him back to the Light.

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It was too late to save Anakin the moment he was conceived as the centrally tragic figure of the Star Wars mega drama!

 

When Qui-Gon died.

 

Well, I agree with xezene , clarifying that yes, everything about some person's acts is matter of choice, but the same person can control his/her own acts , not the world around. So, sometimes the good choice ends in a very bad one. Example: Obi Wan in Ep.3 going after Vader. Result: Last transformation of Darth Vader (yes, he appeared with his name, but in the end what happened in Mustafar made him what he was). We already had that discussion in another thread: if Obi Wan was right to make this choice. If he was, why in the end Darth Vader was made and the Sith won. If he wasn't, then there are things that cannot be controlled (of course there are, Anakin fell because he thought he could learn to control everything). So, I'm not talking about responsibility: yes, if someone do something it is his/her responsibility, not such of the others. But again, it doesn't mean that anybody can control everything in his/her life only by making the right choices. It sounds comfortable only it is not true.
So, the things are complicated. But let's say this: Anakin has the potential to be saved anytime because after all these years in the shadow of the Emperor he has still good in him and that is a fact. On the other side, after all these years he thinks that he is irredeemable (is too late for me son). He is redeemed because he forget about himself if he can be saved or not and he saves his son. So, Anakin is lost when he thinks he is lost, when he thinks that there is no coming back. I think it happens in the moment when Darth Vader is born by his name. Yes, this was clearly Anakin's choice and it is shown clearly in that scene. When lord Vader rises, wll, everything changes. But if you ask if then there still chance to be saved: yes, there is. If Obi Wan didn’t go to Mustafar (I’m not talking about Obi’s choice just about what would happen then, that’s it). If Padme survived the events of Mustafar. If Padme didn’t go to Mustafar. If Anakin knew that he has an offspring. If, if.. well, obviously there were too many chances but unfortunately the right moment came almost 20 years later.

 

Now, now...

 

Don't you dare! Hayden was perfect for the Anakin Lucas wanted to show and for the Anakin I like. Because for example:


but in the same time this:


or this


and let's not forget about this:


But, if we put the fun apart, in Ep.3 we still see Anakin and his emotions, his soul. He is still Anakin and still has good in him.

 

And that's part of the reason he's my favorite character. He's not one-dimensional by any stretch. He can be an emo crybaby one moment, yet be a real badass the next.

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I think there became a point where the people in his life could no longer save him, meaning Obi-wan and Padme. They obviously both tried. He was too obsessed with power. I think that point came the morning after he had the dream of Padme dying. He knew she was going to do die and he said. "I won't let this come true."

He had already made up his mind.

Fast forward 24 years, and he has had time to let his regret and remorse turn into self-hate and agony, when he meets his son. I'm sure he is reminded of Padme, of the good he was once capable of. But he still thinks it is too late for him, and he says, "It is too late for me son."

But then! Through Luke's sheer power of will, we see him resist the dark side and even resist it through torture. It is only then, that Anakin realizes that if his son can resist such evil then surely he, the chosen one, can. And then in that same thought, realizes it is his son being tortured.

At this crucial moment, realizes that he too is capable of good, and he sees the good he can enact in that moment by saving his son.

Bam. Most beautiful character arc of all time.

 

Not cool. Hayden Christensen is a fine actor who did the best job he possibly could. It’s not his fault that George Lucas is an abysmal screenwriter and director.

 

That's essentially what I was going to say. All of the actors have performed better, especially in films where the Director knows how to direct actors. It wasn't just the dialogue they had to work with, it was a director who didn't know how to relay emotional nuance ("faster and more intense" being the popular mantra) and from what I've also heard, didn't always use the actors' best takes... I think it was Ewan that mentioned something about that in an interview once?

But yes, bottom line, Hayden is a perfectly fine actor!

 

Guys, let's keep the focus on the character of Anakin Skywalker. Not George and Hayden.

 

Thanks for being so polite to turn back the topic where it belongs. I was going to say someting not so soft here with the same purpose.


Anyway, while is interesting to speculate what would happen if.. Obi Wan wasn't mentioned Tattoine as place to hide in Ep.1, if Qui Gon survived Ep.1, if Anakin has the possibility to visit his mother earlier, etc, etc. there are things that anyway would happen. I mean the Jedi Order would fall anyway: with or without Anakin, the Republic decay was inevitable, etc. Yes, Anakin's personal path is connected symbolically to the Republic's destiny but even if Anakin could be saved, could the Republic been saved? I don’t think so, I even don't know what would the chances of Anakin to do what he did in Ep.6: destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Yes, this is a little bit aside of what Emperor Ferus is asking, but is strongly connected to Anakin's destiny.

 

Qui-Gon's death is the most underrated catalyst. But from another angle I would also agree with never.

 

I think Qui-Gon's death is the most overrated catalyst. People overestimate Obi-Wan's failures as a teacher...or, at least, overestimate Anakin's state at the beginning of AOTC. Anakin isn't a lost cause at that point.

I think Palpatine's meddling and the rather dramatic fateful events are the most underrated catalysts.

 

Hmm.
The way the movies are structured symbolically, to me, suggest otherwise.
- Anakin loses a Master in the same battle that Sidious loses an apprentice. Anakin almost practically slots in right at that moment. It is like it is fated that without Qui-Gon the position of Anakin's father is thrown up in the air, going to the highest bidder. And Palpatine knows how to manipulate/shape Anakin better than Obi-Wan.
- Qui-Gon (metaphorical father as Anakin has none) says to Shmi (his mother) "I will watch over him, you have my word." After Qui-Gon and Maul die Palpatine states "We are indebted to you for your bravery Obi-Wan Kenobi. And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest!"
At the end of the trilogy, with Anakin fallen and the Jedi destroyed Obi-Wan promises about baby Luke "I will take the child and watch over him."
Notice Palpatine successfully trains Anakin to Sith "knighthood" like Obi-Wan begins Luke's successful training. But Qui-Gon dies before he can fulfill his promise. At least, not physically fulfill it; we do hear him cry out in horror during the Tusken massacre.
- Obi-Wan and Anakin are like orphaned brothers from Qui-Gon, there is always going to be some rivalry there. "Besides, my young apprentice, your senses are not that attuned yet." "And yours are?" "Possibly." I can't visualise this exchange between Anakin and Qui-Gon, or Anakin and Palpatine. There is just more of an unstated lack of objection from Anakin with Qui-Gon.
Anakin is young and impressionable in TPM, he hangs on Qui-Gon's every word. And in ROTS he thinks Palpatine carries great wisdom, he arguably respects Sidious more than Obi-Wan (for the first half of the film at least, until it becomes more a desire to overthrow him).

AOTC is a jarring contrast from TPM. The film is unique for panning up at the beginning... this isn't the exact same galaxy we saw in the last film.
Anakin's first scene in TPM? Smooth talking Padme the first time he ever sees her. Anakin's first scene in AOTC? Nervously sweating as Obi-Wan tries to relax him about reuniting with Padme after ten years.
TPM - "... another pathetic lifeform?" AOTC - "You fell into that nightmare, Master, and I rescued you, remember?"
Everything about the film seems to turn what we saw in TPM on it's head.


Note the following about Anakin's three force-mentors;
Qui-Gon teaches Anakin about selfless symbiosis with midichlorians in TPM - Anakin is confused.
Anakin and Obi-Wan never discuss midis onscreen.
Palpatine teaches Anakin about manipulating midis to control life and death - Anakin laps it up. And ultimately dooms himself in joining Palpatine almost solely for this reason.


"Your destiny lies along a different path from mine." - Obi-Wan and Luke letting go of each other.
"Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to be true." and "You're fulfilling your destiny, Anakin!" - Sith masters referencing binding to their desired protege.
Obi-Wan can't save Qui-Gon's life during the Theed duel. - He must let go of Qui-Gon.
Anakin repeatedly saves Obi-Wan's life in AOTC and ROTS. This bind is symbolically a part of his downfall.


Unlike Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon tells Anakin to use his feelings, his instincts, like Obi-Wan and Yoda repeatedly tell Luke in the OT.
I agree that Palpatine's undermining of Anakin's Jedi tutelage is the worst problem though; he tells Anakin his "patience has paid off" when we know Anakin hasn't achieved this yet. And tells Anakin he doesn't need guidance.

Obi-Wan in AOTC is the only Master we see onscreen that when teaching his sole apprentice relies on the Jedi code, and mission parameters, more than what the force asks of he and his student.
"We will do exactly as the Council has instructed." - They end up on mission to catch the assassin after all anyway.
"The mission! Get to the Chancellor, we're running out of tricks here!" - Leading towards Anakin then killing Dooku in cold-blood. Obi-Wan is not witness to the nature of this, or Anakin's ultimate turn, to me showing his influence is grounding for Anakin, but is not strong or constant enough to save his apprentice.
Mace (ROTS script): "You're mission is here, with the Chancellor." to Anakin when he wants to leave his assignment as Palpatine's representative (!) and go with Obi-Wan to Utapau.

I wouldn't call Palpatine's influence underrated, even the most staunch Anakin critic will partially agree Palpatine is mostly to blame for his turn. Palpatine's dialogue if you look closely is often multi-motivated and I don't find it surprising he masterfully ensnared Anakin.

The fateful events aspect I couldn't agree more with, but Qui-Gon is really ingrained in this as well. Qui-Gon made the mistake of taking Anakin from Shmi, but he warns Anakin of the hard life of a Jedi, Anakin is really too young to understand. I think his presence would ground Anakin... when he took Anakin he didn't consider he wouldn't be his mentor, I don't think. And it is a catch-22; without Anakin being trained as a Jedi can he fulfill the prophecy in any context?

The fateful aspect of the series is quite profound, like the chain of events leading the Naboo refugees to Tattooine, leading Qui-Gon to Anakin, and then away from him. It seems quite superstitiously foreboding.

 

I agree with a good portion of your post, I just wanted to add my own take on this -- you say through Luke's sheer power of will, but I don't think that's it. I don't think it's will power that gets Luke through. Luke, unlike Anakin and a majority of other Jedi, grew up more like his mother -- in a stable family, with loving caregivers and with friends. I can't emphasize enough how important that is for the development of a person. No doubt I will do posts in the future about it -- but for now, all that's necessary to emphasize is that that sort of thing helps a person grow and mature in how they handle their own emotional well-being, setting them up much better for responding well to negative events and emotional stress/trauma/problems (it's actually on a literal level -- the brain becomes more resilient). Luke, through his upbringing, values love, trust [in himself and others], and self-reflection. Like his mother. This gives him a tremendous help in stopping himself from going further. In other words, Luke gives Anakin a model of health that Anakin has been sorely lacking for awhile [goes without saying Palpatine is not one, lol].

I imagine that even though they probably are not conscious because they were not Force ghosts or anything, I imagine that the two people who should really be proud of what Luke achieved with himself and his father are Owen and Beru. They deserve to be proud. They did so well, raising someone they didn't prepare for or ask for, but loving him and raising him so well. Surely Padme would be pleased with Luke, and so would Obi-Wan and Yoda. But it is Owen and Beru who gave Luke a stable, healthy foundation, and because of that foundation Luke was willing to risk it all for his father, while not losing himself to the dark side in the process. Obviously Luke made choices and had realizations, but all of that was based on a stable psychological 'toolkit' he was provided in his youth by Owen and Beru. I know the films are about the Skywalker families, but in terms of healthy foundations for children, the Naberrie and Lars families should get some sort of award or something, haha. They deserve it!

 

If you think about it in terms of stamina...it's possible everything turns out okay if Anakin just stays in the council chamber for as little as thirty more seconds. I know he was in agony waiting on the sideline, I know the anxiety must have felt unbearable...but something as trivial as thirty seconds could have changed everything. That's why it's hard for me to believe it was ever "too late".

It's a bit vapid, but I'll quote Rocky 4.

If Anakin had just gone one more round...

It's vapid, try-hard, bootstraps bs...but, damn, thirty more seconds of discipline could have made a difference.

If Anakin had just been able to survive, to keep his head above water, just long enough for something positive to happen, it could have turned his life around. It happens all the time in real life. Petulant teenagers turn their lives around all the time. People with relationship issues and children on the way turn their lives around all the time. But, fate just lines up one thing after another to mess him up. Qui-Gon's death, Palpatine right there in his ear, his reunion with Padme, Shmi tragically dying in his arms, Padme's pregnancy, the vision of her death...it's one thing after another.

Removing just one of those links in the chain of events could have made all the difference.

 

Anakin could have been saved at any point up to cutting off Mace Windu's hand. (It may not have been easy) After that he was all in for the dark side and it didn't take long before that's all he cared about - more than Obi-Wan or even Padme and their child. It's even possible Anakin could still have walked back from the darkside before going to Mustafar. He seems to still be motivated by saving Padme at that point - but even then he might have been more motivated by power. Either way, by the time Padme and Obi-Wan show up on Mustafar it's definately too late.

If Obi-Wan and / or Yoda had been on Coruscant when Palpatine revealed himself to be the Sith Lord I believe things would have played out differently and it's more than likely Anakin would not have turned. It's more of a long shot, but if Mace Windu asked Anakin to accompany the other Jedi in arresting the Chancellor things may have also turned out differently as well.

The thing with Anakin's fall to dark side is, it wasn't just one event or one action. Its was a long string of events - everything from being a slave, to Qui-Gon's death, right up to learning he would be a father. But once he cut off Mace's hand - he stopped struggling to resist the dark side and was all in.

 

Agreed fully. Especially that ''father figure'' thing is important, as other sources suggest, Anakin needed a father, but Obi-Wan was a brother to him.

 

All these Dark Lords of the Sith having babies out of wedlock. Where are the fathers?!

 

Well, a thing that I think could have changed things considerably for Anakin is his mother and most esp after TPM.

When he leaves her, he is clearly bothered by it and he misses her, which is normal for a kid his age.
He promised to came back and save her. But he never did. Or he did but was too late.

Had Shmi been freed soon after TPM and Anakin would have been allowed the occasional letter or phone call.
Then I think he would have been on a different path.
He would no longer fret and worry about her constantly. She could give him advice and comfort him.
Plus if Smhi wasn't on Tatooine anymore, then she would not get kidnapped by Tuskens and that horrible event wouldn't happen.
And he would be grateful to the Jedi/Padme for freeing her.

What happened to Anakin between TPM and AotC, and this is just my interpretation.
He worried and missed his mother but was told to basically forget her. To let go of his feelings for her.
But he couldn't and instead he buried those feelings deep down and tried to ignore them.
But when the dreams started and later when she died in his arms, all that fear and worry that his nine year old self had, multiplied with ten years and boosted by an adults powerful feelings. All that exploded out in a wave of hate, anger and suffering.
Aside from how horrible he felt and the terrible things he did, what it also did was to make him desperate to avoid feeling like that ever again. To not be able to save someone he loves. And he wanted power, power to stop such a thing from happening again. And when his dreams of Padme starts, he is primed to react to that.

Had Shmi died peacefully in bed at age 80, I doubt that Anakin would have reacted the way he did.

And had Anakin been able to let go and grow out of his feelings for his mother, as most children do when they grow up, then a) the wouldn't have experienced the horror of the Tusken camp and b) he wouldn't be desperate to stop people from dying. So Palpatine would have much less to tempt him with and thus he might not have stopped Mace or even gone there.

The mother thing is done quite well, it is established in TPM, builds in AotC and builds further in RotS.
My main issue with how it plays out is that it makes the Jedi/Padme seem cold and uncaring for just leaving her to rot.
But that is another subject.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface