Full Series Where do you rate The Clone Wars in the Saga?

I was beginning to worry that this thread wouldn't get derailed like the countless others with the same old continuity complaints. Good thing it was. I don't like change.

 

Continuity catastrophes are a danger to us all, Tarados, even you.

 

I don't even know if Labyrinth of Evil is a set of comics or a novel, but unless it's a set of like 50 comics, I think it'd be hard for it to illustrate and finally flesh out Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship in as many ways as TCW has. And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that something appearing in a comic or novel fully fleshes it out the way a film or television show does anyway.

 

Labyrinth of Evil is the prequel novel to Revenge of the Sith.

 

That's pretty sad.

 

Labyrinth of Evil even depicts "that business on Cato Neimoidia."

 

ToddtheJedi I don't doubt that it does, but my original point was how many different sides of their relationship TCW shows. And to me being in a novel only is practically as good as unseen. There are certain SW novels I absolutely love but they don't hit me with the impact some TCW episodes do - they can't. For someone else whose imagination is actively realistic enough for a book to be as good as watching something I say I envy you but I'm certainly not that fortunate.

And guys, I can take a hazing from people who are more die-hard than me, but in my defense there are things I prioritize above Star Wars, it's not an accident but a choice that I don't know every novel and comic out there.

 

Saturday morning cartoons are better at fleshing out characters than books? News to me.

 

When Anakin and Obi-Wan appear throughout the entire Clone Wars multimedia project, its showing many facets of their relationship that everyone wants.

 

The Clone Wars is not a Saturday morning cartoon in the way Droids and Ewoks were. It has more adult themes than much of the PT and some of the OT. If anyone actually wants to debate that point, I'm sure you understand there are plenty of examples I'm prepared to use from across the series.

And what I said was if a book does as much as watching a movie for you, great, it just doesn't for me. That's it.

 

Now I just picture TCW becoming metafiction.

Obi-Wan: I'm sorry, I don't believe we've met.

Darth Maul: I am surprised you could forget me so easily after I killed your master and you left me for dead on Naboo.

Obi-Wan: ...But I killed you.

Darth Maul: I survived my injuries, fueled by my singular hatred for you.

Obi-Wan: OMFG, you stupid n00b! Didn't you read Darth Plagueis? You're just an assassin!

Darth Maul: Wha-?

Obi-Wan: You're dead. I killed you. And WTF with this Nightsister/Nightbrother crap? You had a backstory! You're ruining everything you idiot. Learn to read.

*A Delorean time machine emerges and runs over Maul*

Doc Brown: Kenobi! You've got to come back with me Kenobi. To 2008!

Obi-Wan: Doc?! What's going on?

Doc Brown: It's Lucas, Kenobi! He makes a new TV show and it's just God awful. You're in it right now! It's messing up the timeline!

Obi-Wan: This is heavy Doc. Are you saying I'm stuck in some crappy alternate reality to the EU?

*Ahsoka appears in an old photograph that should just feature Obi-Wan and Anakin*

Doc Brown: Great scott! It's worse than I thought!

 

One reason why TCW wouldn't even rank with the movies for me (aside from the fact that it's a TV series), is that nothing at all happens in it that is relevant to the saga. It's a collection of inconsequential footnotes.

Aside from that, while the PT may have wooden dialogue, TCW has abysmal writing.

 

Neither the PT or TCW has particularly strong dialogue, I'd certainly agree with that. However, I think TCW shows a bunch of stuff that's really important to the saga that the PT was foolish to skip over. The PT doesn't show Anakin Skywalker in a truly altruistic light, it doesn't show that the Separatists are evil and not simply seeking independence, it doesn't address the metaphysical and ethical questions surrounding the use of a clone army, it doesn't show that Anakin has had any moments of dark side temptation between the Tusken Raider scene in Ep. II and his actual fall.

To me, these things are WAY more important to the saga as a whole than what GL wasted so much PT time on like, say, the Padme-murder-mystery that takes up half of Ep. II or the pod race that gets an ungodly length of time in Ep. I. It's not even close.

 

Yes yes, to Humble_Jedi you listen.

 

Or not.

 

TCW provides nothing I haven't already seen done far better by the Clone Wars multimedia project.

 

TPM shows Anakin in a truly altruistic light, when he goes out of his way to help Qui-Gon and co. I agree this could have been fleshed out more, as it's important to see that there is indeed good inside of him, but I wouldn't want to illustrate it by taking something out of this series and inserting it into the saga. I'm of the opinion that almost the entire story of TPM is unnecessary. If AotC were the first episode, and the second episode was dedicated to the actual war, Anakin's and Obi-Wan's friendship, the relationship between Anakin and Padme, Anakin's good side, some true, important heroics by Anakin, all of that would make his ultimate fall so much more dramatic.

The separatists being shown to be evil is a terrible idea, and it's one of the things I loathe about TCW. It makes everything look way too black and white. The whole point of the war is that it's fake and both sides have been played. It's much more interesting if the Separatists are thinking they are fighting for a just cause. It would be much more interesting for the audience to wonder if the separatists might be right. This would help the ambiguity of Dooku's character in AotC, the corruption of the Jedi, etc., all of which are way more interesting themes to flesh out the story than the separatists being simply MUHAHAHAHA. If anything, I'd love to see more shades of grey, and the separatists actually having real, actual heroes on their side.

The ethical questions surrounding the clone army are interesting, but it's a terrible idea to flesh that out in the movies, as this would only complicate a story that already has way too many things going on in comparison to the OT. The reason why the shady origins of the army aren't explicitly addressed, is because it would too obviously tip off the audience that the Jedi are being played. (I'm having in mind an audience that is new to the saga, watching the episodes in the order I - VI.)

Anakin doesn't need a plethora of dark side temptations in order to justify his fall, it's completely unnecessary. He's going dark because he doesn't want to lose Padme the way he lost his mother. It's thoroughly established over the course of three movies.

 

Humble_Jedi

I'll give you Anakin's altruism in Ep. I, but he was just ten, to me that's not nearly as significant as seeing that he still had that side of him all the way up until his fall. I think that's a really important point about his character the PT fails to illustrate.

I take your point about the Separatists not being evil because I appreciate nuance, but here's my issue: if they're not evil, why is it so important to stop them from separating from the Republic? The PT never explains why the galaxy's guardians of peace and justice see some systems declaring independence from the Republic as a mortal threat that justifies violence. To me that's HUGE, that affects the whole story of the PT...and GL doesn't even touch on it.

I disagree about the clone army. To me it's really awkward that they never talk about the metaphysical and ethical issues of these guardians of peace and justice using a clone army. It takes away from their credibility. And GL wasted SO much PT time on stuff that didn't need to be shown that's so much less important than that, I don't accept the argument that he used PT time on more relevant stuff, not by a long shot.

I also wouldn't say Anakin needs other moments to justify what happens. I would say it helps a lot. I never thought Ep. III pulled it off particularly well. Even with the set-up you describe, if someone hasn't been tempted by the dark side at all for ten years and it's a sudden thing, that's a much more clumsy and awkward character arc/bad story-telling IMO. GL could have made up for that in different ways inside of Ep. III, but he didn't.

 

My main argument about the Clone army is that it's hard to flesh out without tipping off the audience about a future betrayal.

 

The greyness of The Clone War is interesting, but I also don't see how it's appropriate. Much of the corruptness of the Republic, in TPM and TCW has been shown to be linked to the commerce guilds (which are allowed to remain neutral ).

Remove TCW from the discussion and still the Trade Federation bribed the "bureaucrats," it illegally invaded Naboo, a Jedi was killed trying to stop the invasion, and apparently the Republic knew the Trade Federation was up to no good, since this resulted in a "strong sympathy vote" for Palpatine. Yet Dooku points out that when these commerce guilds such as the Trade Federation pledge themselves to the CIS, that thousands of systems will follow. They are following an organization that has been known to be corrupt and that precipitated Valorum's removal from office because he was ill suited to deal with it. I don't see how they can rationalize that it's a valid move to get away from the Republic's corruption, when they are following an organization that was the source of the corruption seen in TPM. And apparently it's not just coincidence that they end up on the same side, according to Dooku, systems will actively flock to the CIS because such organizations have jumped sides. It seems like they are following the money, which seems a bit corrupt.

Yeah, there could be some systems in the Outer Rim that get ignored by the Republic and jump sides out of desperation, but in the grand scheme of things they aren't controlling the CIS. So while the sympathetic tale of the Joe Blow system in the Outer Rim that was being raided by slavers and pirates and has now pledged itself to the CIS because the Republic wouldn't do anything about it may be interesting, it's not that important beyond simply knowing they exist. And once they jump sides it seems like they would be indentured to the CIS.

Plus I think the Republic schism also just serves to isolate Palpatine's enemies in the same way that Starkiller rallying the Rebel Alliance does.

If Dooku can rally the most unsavory elements of the Republic to the CIS and then use them as an external threat to the Republic, then he can create a crisis that warrants emergency powers and increasing centralization, and in the end he gets to execute these influential commerce barons and shut down their armies to remove them as a threat.

The films (and TCW) have never really demonstrated any kind of political corruption that didn't stem from the commerce guilds. It really only gets mentioned in ROTS cutscenes when it is said that the senators know that the real power lays with Palpatine and that they will do whatever they can to share in it. Sounds like how Louis XIV had the nobles eating out of his hand, and also said "I am the state."

But the same seems like it can be said of the CIS. All the wealthy institutions flock to the CIS, and apparently many systems follow suit.

The only Republic corruption that we really see in TCW (that makes some of the CIS members appear noble) is again due to the commerce guilds, which has been allowed to remain in the Republic (again, ) and that the CIS senate ironically criticizes as controlling the Republic.

 

@Dark Lord Tarkas, we definitely both agree that the prequels were done wrong and wasted way too much time. It felt like when ROTS came, it had to suddenly rush everything.