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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Where does disney go from here with no true villian?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DML3, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. DML3

    DML3 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Killing snoke this early was just asinine.

    Renn isnt a villian he is a confused kid. Him and hux have internal issues too. Vader never had these issues and Vader, dooku, maul and grievous never thought to challenge his master. All 4 would demolish kylo. Kylos purpose since tfa was to impress snoke and earn his favor.

    Which means kylo isnt strong enough to carry these movies to be a true villain. Why would they back themselves into a corner like this?
     
  2. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Kylo is the new big bad.
     
  3. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Well, that’s your opinion. Not a fact.

    They clearly plan on pursuing Kylo as the antagonist, and they always have.
     
  4. robot120

    robot120 Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2001
    Simple: Episode IX will take place 10 years later with Ben being a battle hardened, mature Supreme Leader. Also, since Snoke made fun of his helmet, Kylo will start wearing a Vader helmet.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. SunnyNelson

    SunnyNelson Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader. So, there you go.
     
  6. RDeckard

    RDeckard Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Kylo Ren is the big bad. He always should have been.

    Because honestly, who the heck is Snoke?
     
  7. Kthru12

    Kthru12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2016
    I doubt 10 years later. We may get a 4 year time skip, though, to match the passage of time between TFA and IX. It would fit with the real-world aging of the actors.
     
    Aetius888 and cwustudent like this.
  8. Leia's Twin

    Leia's Twin Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    May 19, 2016
    I thought it was kind of strange to kill off Snoke (and Phasma - I'll miss Gwen!) leaving no strong dark character. I do assume that the next movie will have a time gap, but I just don't see Kylo turning into something like Anakin/Darth Vader to then be saved or killed off? Maybe there is another, opening the door for a continuation of the series. I al still scratching my head over this though...
     
  9. DML3

    DML3 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I agree with the time gap. It would give them an easy out to kill leia off screen.
     
  10. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I disagree. Abrams and Kasdan clearly presented Kylo as a poser in TFA, hiding behind a mask, and pretending to be Darth Vader, while being a conflicted man child underneath the mask. He clearly needed a lot more development and training to become a credible main antagonist, development that TLJ denied him, in favour of shock value, by creating a cosplay of conflict for the benefit of the viewer, until Snoke suddenly lost his senses, and got sliced in half like a chump. So, rather than reinventing himself, Kylo is still the angst ridden bully he was in TFA, only now he's in charge together with his new lackey General Hux, not a very terrifying prospect.
     
  11. zam wesell2005

    zam wesell2005 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Getting rid of a 9 ft tall cgi alien, and putting it all on actor, and a good actor is not a bad thing. Problem, is the hero with a few lessons in the force is as strong, if not stronger than him. He has about 20 years worth. So her taking him out, big deal.
     
  12. Kthru12

    Kthru12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2016
    He's got all the resources of the FO at his command, plus the Knights of Ren likely waiting in the wings. All Rey has got is the Falcon and a handful of non-Force sensitive friends (since Carrie is gone).

    The odds are still stacked against her, which I'm sure is plenty terrifying from her perspective.
     
  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Kylo is and has been the true villain since TFA.

    In fact, now he is even more evil and unpredictable than he was back then.

    I suppose having an Emperor 2.0 was not a good idea for the ST. Good move to have Kylo as the main baddie.
     
  14. Rancor Keeper

    Rancor Keeper Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015
    In Episode V we see a partially trained Luke run off to confront something he was not yet ready to face. He could also have been described as a conflicted man child in need of more development and training to become a credible main protagonist. No one blinked an eye in Episode VI when we see a composed, self-assured young Jedi becoming confident in his powers. There's nothing inconsistent with Renn following a similar arc and becoming a formidable threat. Let's face it, other than Rey there's no one left in the Galaxy (except maybe Mazz?) who can oppose him even before he fully develops.

    *edit* Also, as far as villain progression arcs are concerned: so far Renn has destroyed a Jedi Academy and attempted to kill his master Luke, actively embraced his pursuit of the Dark Side, killed his father as a means to fully embrace the Dark Side, killed his master Snoke and taken his power to become the new Supreme leader, and attempted again to kill his old master Luke. What the heck more do you want to show him as a credible villain???
     
  15. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015

    What Knights of Ren? RJ completely ignored that aspect of TFA, and has Luke conveniently die, since Kylo would obviously not stand a chance against Luke and Rey. In my view it's not very good story telling. Rey and Kylo should earn their status as main antagonist and protagonist, not have it fall into their laps by having their betters die because of stupidity or convenience.
     
  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015



    What Knights of Ren? RJ completely ignored that aspect of TFA, and has Luke conveniently die, since Kylo would obviously not stand a chance against Luke and Rey. In my view it's not very good story telling. Rey and Kylo should earn their status as main antagonist and protagonist, not have it fall into their laps by having their betters die because of stupidity or convenience.
     
  17. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015



    What Knights of Ren? RJ completely ignored that aspect of TFA, and has Luke conveniently die, since Kylo would obviously not stand a chance against Luke and Rey. In my view it's not very good story telling. Rey and Kylo should earn their status as main antagonist and protagonist, not have it fall into their laps by having their betters die because of stupidity or convenience.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  18. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015



    What Knights of Ren? RJ completely ignored that aspect of TFA, and has Luke conveniently die, since Kylo would obviously not stand a chance against Luke and Rey. In my view it's not very good story telling. Rey and Kylo should earn their status as main antagonist and protagonist, not have it fall into their laps by having their betters die because of stupidity or convenience.
     
  19. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Data base error, another triple post.
     
  20. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    This website needs an upgrade.
     
  21. SunnyNelson

    SunnyNelson Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2013
    He didn't ignore the Knights of Ren. Luke mentions that Ben took off with a handful of Luke's students. Luke probably doesn't know they started a new garage band called "the Knights of Ren."
     
  22. Kthru12

    Kthru12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2016
    RJ ignored the Knights but JJ won't.

    He not only invented them, he specifically mentioned in an interview that he wants to make a movie about them. So I expect them to play a big role in IX.

    Whether they earned it or not, Rey and Ren are the only Force users left standing so they'll have to play the roles of main antagonist and protagonist in IX.

    If the Knights turn out to be Luke's former students who left with Kylo, that adds 6 more Force users to the Dark side of the equation and stacks the odds even further against the heroes.
     
  23. Vader0706

    Vader0706 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2017
    We must have seen different films, because Kylo is clearly the big bad - both in TFA and in TLJ.
     
  24. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Why should I care about Kylo Ren and the FO as the villains?
    Kylo was interesting but the FO is a joke.
     
  25. Othini

    Othini Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Snoke would just have been Emperor 2. Kylo is set up to be the main villain. The audience i sat with reacted with joy and shock when the "killing of Snoke" scene arrived. It was unexpected and needed. He sat there like a rotten tree and could not simply deal with Kylos raw power and cleverness in the end. Snoke was more like a cynical tool that mirror money greeding dictators of our own world. The connection to Canto Bight scum and the idea behind First Order is telling enough. We don`t need more to know. If Snoke was supposed to be a more complex character from the unknown regions etc, it would have been on the expense of the complexity of Kylo.
     
    corinthia likes this.
  26. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Don't forget that when Dark Side apprentices kill their masters they seem to almost become more powerful as well. It's almost like the next level of evil. We could already see it when Rey tried to do the same thing as before with the saber but this time Kylo Ren was able to stop it. He's becoming strong with the dark side of the Force and although he isn't the greatest hand-to-hand fighter in the history of Star Wars he's one of the better manipulators and deceivers we've seen since Palpatine himself. People mistake his vulnerability and expose weaknesses to him that he later uses against them. Against Rey it was her past. Against Snoke it's his lust for bloodshed. He's also one of the more accomplished Force manipulators we've seen beyond Palptaine, Vader or Yoda as far as his ability to carry on conversations while suspending blaster bolts in mid air, or pass the equivalent of a Snoke lie dectector test and signal as though he means to kill Rey, while keeping the other part of his mind hidden enough to kill Snoke. He's manipulative and as he continues to grow in power I expect his ability to manipulate objects and people to grow.

    Villainy isn't only about hand-to-hand strength it's about exploiting weaknesses. Rey exploited his in TFA because he was hurt, needed her alive, and wanted to train her. With less family around and new confident from killing Snoke... Rey has become his primary weakness.
     
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  27. MYMUTHAZ

    MYMUTHAZ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2001

    Ugh I hate that, but not sure what else they can really do?
     
  28. DarthHutt

    DarthHutt Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2000
    I love how there were all those Snoke theories...and it turns out that he was only a plot-device to get Kylo Ren into power.
     
  29. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    We've been told Kylo was on a reverse hero's journey, as a mirror to Rey's hero's journey. So Kylo started out a bit of a wannabe. But when Snoke said he sensed resolve in him, he did. Kylo had determined that he was being miused by Snoke, but instead of turning back to the light, he delved deeper into the Dark. Luke says he cannot save Kylo. And Leia says that after holding out hope for so long, she knows her son is gone. Maybe Rey can bring him back, but that seems unlikely to me now. Kylo is deep into the Dark. He's the big bad now.
     
  30. RyanForder

    RyanForder Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Vader and Dooku both stated in the PT that they wanted to overthrow their master, Kylo actually did it instead of talking about it. He's the big bad guy going forward.