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Lit Wherefore art thou darr tah? - Discussion on Sith 'immortality'

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Dreadwar, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Don't get too excited, Ulicus, Zorrixor, this is not Wherefore art thou Darth version 3... yet... :p It was just a snazzier title than "Discussion on Sith immortality." ;)

    So now, after some discussion in which different contingency plans for cheating death cropped up, I really want to see a clever Sith Lord who has about as much Force sensitivity as Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy do it right, and become the most persistent thorn in the Jedi's side through doing his homework and mastering every Sith trick in the book to live forever.

    Just how many forms of Sith immortality are there? To answer this question and others, I've composed something of a guide so wannabe Sith can ensure they don't prematurely brag about being invincible, immortal foes - see our case study Palpatine, "I live as energy - I am the dark side!" before ensuring that they actually are as close to unkillable as the lore permits.

    Transfer essence (body hopping):
    Examples: Andeddu, Tulak Hord, Vitiate, Freedon Nadd, Zash, Bane, Set Harth, Tenebrous, Palpatine, Cronal, Krayt​

    So I distinguish this kind of essence transfer from the 'object' variant simply because sourcebooks detailing the powers do so, and furthermore stipulate that the 'object' variant requires Sith alchemy. So this is a rite by which Sith Lords project their consciousness outside of their bodies and attempt to imprint upon another mind, overriding the spirit of the target.It's a risky process, because in most cases (Palpatine, Bane) it destroys the original body, and one's spirit can be destroyed if the target's mind resists possession. Vitiate is able to circumvent the destruction of his original body, although I suspect that's specifically because his body is immortal thanks to the Nathema Ritual. Both he and Palpatine mitigate risk through possessing specially prepared and perhaps willing targets, and clone bodies, respectively.

    It's not clear what the 'range' of this power is. Sourcebooks have it as a scant few meters. Palpatine manages to traverse interstellar distances, although does seem to require possessing Jeng Droga and the aid of ancient Sith spirits to do so. Palpatine is also of interest because he is able to perform essence transfer on another person, and a non-Force sensitive at that (Bevel Lamelisk). I'll note that essence transfer of this kind doesn't result in a manifested Sith spirit - we just see a flash or spark of light at best.

    We see a unique variant in Tenebrous, who seems to encode his consciousness in maxichlorians before jumping into Plagueis. Probably an attempt to rediscover the lost art of essence transfer from the grounds up, failing due to his overly materialistic focus perhaps.


    Transfer essence (object)
    Examples: Dathka Graush, Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Andeddu, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Nihilus​

    The stereotypical Sith spirit. This is a Sith alchemical ability, and I think the term 'essence transfer' is a bit of a misnomer, as it's really more the art of tethering one's spirit to the physical world through a physical location or appropriate receptacle. It's very much preferred by the Old Sith, and pretty much all of the ancient Sith Lords knew how to do it. Book of Sith indicates the geometry of tombs plays a ley line-like role; failing to properly bind one's spirit to the object results in it being consigned to Chaos. I suspect sacrifice/Force drain is used as sort of fuel for the binding, as well - Exar Kun uses an alchemical apparatus to drain the Massassi to sunder his spirit from his body, Graush has a thousand Sith spirits in his Heart to which he is bound, Andeddu drains one of his followers to shunt his spirit from his holocron to his corpse, and of course Nihilus is constantly feeding...

    I reckon that basically any Sith using this ability is also capable of the body hopping kind of essence transfer, given what we know of Sith spirits possessing individuals (Ragnos, an uncountable number of spirits in TOR, Kun) and even inanimate corpses (guardian spirits on Korriban, and Andeddu). So I'd suggest that this is merely a more advanced form of essence transfer, as the Sith is safely tied to the physical world, whereas in the former kind, they don't have such a tether, necessitating a quick shuttling of consciousness between bodies lest they be lost to Chaos. Some Sith spirits are mere tortured echoes of their former selves (like Pall), whereas others seem to be able to roam far (like Nadd) and generally operate more like undead wraiths with ethereal bodies rather than ghosts who can do no more than influence (Nihilus vs Muur).

    I also think that this is employed in many Sith holocrons (perhaps because their mind reading/copying architecture lends itself easily to such), albeit usually only a shard of one's spirit is transferred, rather like a poor man's Horcrux. This is seen in the Dark Holocron Kun smashes, Darth Rivan's holocron and possibly XoXaan.

    Undeath
    Examples: Graush, Andeddu, Simus, Drear, Scabrous, Sion, Krayt​

    This refers to the ability to animate one's dead/dead-ish body beyond conditions that should have killed it. There's shades of variance, as with the above techniques, but it would seem to do with merely willing oneself not to die, with the aid of Sith alchemy or the Murakami Orchid ritual in extreme cases. Graush cuts out his Heart and binds his spirit to it, suggesting he just controls a body that should otherwise be dead like a marionette, Simus survives his beheading, and of course Andeddu and Sion are most similar in keeping their bodies animate unless they are tricked into relinquishing their hold on the physical world (which they were! Reminder to all aspiring Sith reading this manual: when a Jedi you have a crush on tries to convince you to give up the ghost, or when a Sith rival tries and tricks you into thinking he's killing you with illusions of fire despite the fact you created those illusions and really should not be so stupid as to think they're real for a second, DON'T FALL FOR IT). Krayt and Andeddu are both different from Sion, however, as they're using essence transfer in conjunction with this to actively possess their corpses after death.

    We then have Darths Drear and Scabrous, who essentially killed and zombiefied themselves with the Murakami Orchid elixir. The problem is they require a little bit of help beyond just force of will - the absorption of midichlorian-rich blood - to retain their identity, otherwise they just become drooling mindless zombies.

    There's lesser examples that don't quite constitute cheating death of Sith similarly using their rage and force of will to survive grievous injury, like Vader did on Mustafar.

    Biological immortality
    Examples: Sorzus Syn, Karness Muur, Remulus Dreypa, Vitiate, Plagueis, Krayt, Cade Skywalker​

    This entails a variety of techniques to heal the body of injury, malady or even put a stopper in aging. There's tidbits from various sources (Empire's End, TOTJ) that many of the ancient Dark Lords (specifically the Dark Jedi Exiles) could do this, and it seems the techniques apply to a body bereft of its spirit, with the Great Temple housing some perfectly alchemically preserved (not exactly mummified) Dark Lords in TOTJ, and of course Vitiate's body is immortal through his ritual even when his spirit is vacant.

    Syn, Muur and Dreypa seem to achieve this through their talismans, even when someone else (like Celeste) is wearing it. No surprise, given that all three amulets are creations of an alchemist and they seem to have biological effects like creating the Rakghoul plague. However, it would seem if the talisman is separated from the body, any aging catches up to it. A sort of opposite exists with the Heart of Graush, where pirate Naz Felyood is 'cursed' with agelessness until he touches the Heart again.

    Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation and the dark transfer practiced by Krayt and Cade seem to be almost identical in outcome, although one comes with ahsuhm-looking lightning. They both can supernaturally heal and even resurrect others, as well as the self (e.g. Krayt reviving and then healing his rotten corpse, and Plagueis beginning to revitalise himself towards the end of his life), and I suspect dark transfer is just to midichlorian manipulation as essence transfer is to maxichlorians - Tenebrous and Plagueis were short-sightedly focused on the materialistic rather than metaphysical, so their efforts didn't quite go the full way, which is why Venamis' organs still gave out eventually, Plagueis couldn't revive his body after Palpatine offed him, and hey, it'd even explain the lack of snazzy lightning.

    There's also other, non-Force based options that are viable contingency methods, like organ replacement, gene therapy, cybernetics, stasis caskets and carbonite hybernation, although they fall under the category of life extension rather than undeath/immortality.

    ---

    All of this leaves me with many questions still. What are the mechanisms governing these methods of cheating death? How do Sith specters differ from Jedi ghosts? Are perhaps Sith spirits confined to accessing only a perversion of the Force, e.g. being able to toss around some lightning but being cut off from the will of the Force? Are these shades truly undying as long as the physical world remains, or do they steadily degenerate or fade over time anyway despite their best efforts?

    Does the Darth title - the "embodiments of death," as per Baras, strengthening the link to darr tah (triumph over or triumph through death) - originate as a title for Sith who succeeded in cheating death?

    In fact, kark it! Might as well just go ahead and make this Wherefore art thou Darth version 3.0. Fire away. :p
     
  2. mes520

    mes520 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012

    Well, okay, I'll try to give this a go.

    I think this stems back to Qui-Gon's quote in ROTS:

    I think in the case of the Jedi Force Ghosts, they truly are immortal. While the Sith never truly achieve it. Sure they have Sith essence transfer and spirits, but we've seen these spirits destroyed countless times.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Yeah impermanence kind of renders the Sith concept of immortality impossible.

    And I guess canonically speaking, the Sith don't believe in that ghost stuff.
     
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  4. mes520

    mes520 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012

    Perhaps becoming a Ghost draws aways from the Dark Side and more towards the Light?
     
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  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I really don't like when it is written that reductively. Qui-Gon's quote -- and I suppose, canonically speaking, the TCW episode "Destiny" -- demonstrates that it's a philosophical difference and that only by knowing oneself and letting go, as the priestess says, or release of self, as Qui-Gon says, can you achieve it.

    I mean, in that sense, it is "light sided" in the sense that this idea of "light side" encompasses the attribute of selflessness, and this is one of, if not the core attribute of that side of the Force, with selfishness being its counterpart for the "dark side." But I don't see it as a game mechanic distinction of substance that you tap into which your post sort of implies. That sort of perspective raises the question as to why the Sith don't simply tap into the light side to achieve certain powers that would benefit them in a selfish manner, such as immorality.

    I'm not much of a fan of what I see as a reverse causality view that a person's character is determined by which substance they tap into, rather than this whole duality being defined by the character of the individual. And that sort of thinking is the necessary end result of the aforementioned perspective, because it's the only way to explain why the light side is inaccessible to the Sith, and likewise why the dark side is inaccessible to the Jedi, or otherwise not permitted.
     
  6. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    It's true that Sith spirits seem to be very much impermanent; aside from the cases of being destroyed, according to Veitch they can theoretically live in the world forever but only until the world is destructed. Yet some degeneration of identity seems to occur as well; Ajunta Pall is a mere tortured imprint of his former self.

    However, I'd argue Jedi ghosts aren't permanent either - in fact they seem less so. If I may interpret to the point of retconning the horrible CSWE's take on things - that Jedi ghosting is a selfish denial of the Force's will - Jedi who preserve their identity after death do, in a sense, deny the natural will or 'flow' of things to return to the Force, but it is certainly not selfish. Bodhisatva-like, maybe, but they're merely remaining for a few decades to do important work and guide others on the path, and then they move on, as Ben's ghost did, to join all else in becoming one with the Force, as according to its will. So it's, if anything, a very selfless sacrifice, delaying nirvana for the sake of others.

    In this interpretation, then, the Sith spirits, who view becoming one with the Force as something terrible, cling on to the physical world in an unnatural state. They can never sublime into the Force through the release of the self, so they must chain themselves to people, objects or locations so that they never become one with the Force as Jedi ghosts inevitably do. Of course, in this state they are vulnerable, and a sufficient exertion of the Force or the destruction of what's keeping them in the physical plane results in their annihilation.

    In terms of the new canon, we have the shades of Sith Warriors on Moraband. Yet they deny life after death, so I think it's telling that the Sith believe in that ghost stuff only in the sense of undeath.
     
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  7. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Well, they aren't unambiguously Sith spirits - they could very well be illusions created by the Force Priestesses, or perhaps some kind of manifestation of the inherent darkness of the planet itself. Though they could also be denying life after death in the sense of existing as an independent consciousness within the Force, instead of a weakening remnant clinging to the material world.
     
  8. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 26, 2010
    I'd say they're as unambiguously Sith spirits as any specter that isn't explicitly identified as such in OOU articles or sourcebooks (so most) in the EU. The credits identify them as "Sith Warriors" as well.

    Furthermore, they're able to tell the current Sith Lords of Yoda being on Moraband.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Well, Sith are all about immorality...

    But on a more serious note we could argue that not all light side abilities are created equal, so to speak. Perhaps when it comes to Force ghosting the typical Sith would be defeated by their alignment ( or equivalently their dark side corruption ), as Qui-Gon implies. Can one really use the apogee of selflessness to achieve a selfish end, or would one of those get in the way of the other? Would a Sith really find it useful or desirable to be a Jedi Force ghost? Would they instinctively shrink from the process?

    Why can't we have both?

    [​IMG]

    Using Anakin as an example, clearly preexisting character issues factor into why some people fall and others don't, yet use of the dark side is corruptive in nature and bends inexorably toward a Sith-like character.

    That ground's been adequately covered, I tend to think. One way to put it would be that the dark side is not technically inaccessible to the Jedi, but that avoidance of dark side use is central to the concept of being a Jedi; in other words, when Force users wield the dark side with impunity, we call them "dark Jedi" instead of "Jedi".
     
  10. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    I was about to comment on this thread, since I initially disliked the Lucas/Filoni view on Dark-siders not becoming Force ghosts or gaining immortality. The issue in canon is a bit complicated due to the use of the term "illusion" that gets used to describe the Sith specters in the episode.

    I'm gonna try and compile a list of things from the episodes and the official Databank that touches on this subject. It's more a collection of ramblings and quotations than reaching a conclusion about Sith specters in the new canon:

    In Destiny, the Force Priestess Serenity says that all living things become part of the Cosmic Force when they die, adding to it and leaving the Living Force behind. I'm just paraphrasing here.
    Which means all dead people are part of the Force and I assume this means their history and personalities are intact as information to the living, when tapping into the Force to see what it can communicate. That might be a basis for some of the visions people experience, when it's about events in the past. There's a difference between the information being retained and retaining their conscious selves. Which is the basis for Yoda's quest, to retain his consciousness after dying and thus gaining immortality.

    From what the Priestesses say, they monitor strong Force-sensitives throughout the universe to see who's worthy of gaining their knowledge. Since the Sith can't perform the ritual due to their Dark Side affiliation, this form of retaining the "self" is closed to them. On the surface, it seems the Sith have a shallow, materialistic existence, doomed to disappear once they die. But throughout the movie saga and the tv shows, we see nuances in this view and what the Dark Side can offer.

    Firstly, the "Dark Yoda" that Yoda faces, represents his own personal dark side, a part of him he needs to address and acknowledge before he can reject it. It manifests on an island that is visibly meant to be "strong with the Dark Side", much like the cave on Dagobah. In the show, this symbolism takes on the form of black smoke eminating from visions or illusions encountered in the Dark Side locations. It's an easier visual marker than Luke going "There's something not right here... I feel cold. Death..." (Though there is a slight fog in places in the cave sequence.)

    From the cave in Voices, to the island and Dark Yoda in Destiny, to Moraband's Sith snakes, Sith Warriors and Darth Bane in Sacrifice, all have in common that they manifest with this black smoke, symbolizing the Dark Side in a place where it is strong. Even when facing Sith Lords and other Dark-siders in the movies or the shows, we don't get this visual effect. In essence, it represents the rare times we get a non-corporeal aspect of the Dark Side in canon. Even when Yoda travels through the Valley of Extinction, the illusions there don't have this effect, iirc. They just change and disappear immediately, while something like Dark Yoda or Darth Bane react to things as if they were self-aware.

    There's also the info from the Databank:
    Moraband - "Yoda ventured to Moraband near the end of the Clone Wars on a spiritual journey initiated by the disembodied voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. With the guidance of five mysterious Force Priestesses, Yoda was subjected to spiritual trials, facing down illusions of ancient Sith warriors conjured by the Priestesses as well as by the power of the dark side."

    From this we know that these particular illusions are not just projected by living/immortal Force-sensitives like the Priestesses or Sidious, but also from the darker aspect of the Force. In this case the Cosmic Force, since the Living Force is only involved with living beings, which the dead Sith are no longer part of. They are, however, part of the Cosmic Force, per Serenity's dialogue in the previous episode. Does this mean they're "self-aware" or "immortal" or is the Force just using their information to create little more than mindless puppets? Would there even be a difference at this point?

    The episode guide, combined with dialogue from Sacrifice and from the end of Destiny, seems to imply something more is going on, something that neatly ties in with existing EU lore while giving Force spirits in canon, a special status.

    At the end of Destiny, we have this exchange: "Set a course for Moraband." *R2-D2 reacts* "Yes, brave we must be. The worst, I fear, is yet to come."

    Both R2 and Yoda know about Moraband and even the droid is scared of the place. Now, if there's nothing "tangible" about ghosts/specters/apparitions beyond the rare Force spirit tradition, there wouldn't be anything to fear, it'd just be another barren desert world. The fact that Moraband in the present tense is a feared location, implies there are more "traditional" hauntings on the planet. Enough to keep off-worlders away from it. Just like in the EU.

    We also get non-Force people using terms like "Ghost", "Phantom" and "Specter" in Rebels. There's also the demon-worshipping Frangawl cult, so who knows what other spooky things are in SW?

    In Sacrifice, Yoda shields himself from the attack of the Sith snake(s), using the Force. I'm not sure if there's meant to be a deliberate parallel between the Sith using animals to manifest and Qui-Gon using fireflies to lead Yoda, but it's a cool possibility. At the end of the scene with the Sith Warrior specters, they slam into Yoda, leaving "repercussions in the Force" and alerting Dooku and seemingly Sidious as well, just as they warned they would. A bit more than just an illusion created by the observer, like in real life.

    Another interesting aspect is that the Sith Warriors spell out their secret, ironically or maybe deliberately, ruining Bane's temptation right after. "Your fear feeds our hunger for power".
    The episode guide seems to back up this mechanism when it says that "Deprived of the power of fear and intimidation, Bane disappates". Because Yoda refused to react to Darth Bane's offer and declared him an illusion that didn't exist anymore, he lost his power source and couldn't maintain his shape, being dragged back into the sarcophagus. And making a big deal out of it for an "illusion".

    Adding to the mystery are two promotional blurbs.
    From the synopsis for Sacrifice: "After many grueling trials, Yoda next travels to the ancient Sith home world of Moraband, where he must face an ancient evil determined to rule the galaxy."
    From the news article announcing Yoda in Rebels: "The last time we saw the Emperor’s “little green friend” in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, he was traveling to Force planets, encountering evil spectres of ancient Sith, and unlocking the path to immortality."

    If anything, this isn't an open-and-shut case in terms of what non-corporeal acts the dead Sith can perform, but it keeps open the possibility that they retain some sentience in a non-living form, or at least a form of life that isn't normal. But an exceedingly boring existence given the Warriors claim there is nothing there. Which makes sense from their ideology, they only want to dominate and manipulate living beings, i.e. the Living Force. The Cosmic Force is too abstract...
     
  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Sure, but I think you can look at it in that sense in two different ways as well: more literally, in the sense that we view the dark side as a substance that you tap into, and which in so doing is like a drug of some sort that is addictive, but I find that is mostly present in the EU (including Dark Empire, which is one of my favorites) and earlier drafts of The Empire Strikes Back. There's also the more figurative sense that the dark side, as a symbol representative of the darker side of humanity (or whatever a more broad term to encompass all sapient life would be) which is part of the Force, is tempting on its own: look at it as the Freudian id. It's fundamentally desirable. I think it's a matter of interpretation of a text. My preferred interpretation of Dark Empire is that Luke's darkness in that story is driven by his need to be the hero, to shoulder the burden.

    I look at the Jedi as representing balance rather than aligning with either side. The dark side is just substantially more dangerous than the opposite, but I tend to view the fall of the Jedi as at least partially a consequence of flaws characteristic of the order which arise out of straying too far from the middle, e.g. complacency, stagnancy. In the sense of the Hegelian dialectic of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, the new Jedi would eschew those flaws and adopt some of the traits of the Sith, specifically their adaptability to change. This is essentially what Yoda and Obi-Wan did out of sheer necessity, and it is how they trained Luke, eschewing their unnecessary traditions such as training age and the monastic lifestyle. I suppose that it remains to be seen whether this continues through to the sequel trilogy.

    I'll point out that, in case people are uncomfortable with the Jedi taking any sort of traits that the Sith use, if we look at the Jedi and Sith of the prequel trilogy as representing the light and dark sides, respectively, and we examine the dichotomy at its most base level, those two things represent stasis and change, respectively.
     
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  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Not to mention the film as released! :p

    There is some evidence for this. Though it may represent an outdated take on things and was not expressed outright in the film, the Annotated Screenplays refer to TESB Luke using both the light side and the dark side simultaneously. We also have the example set by DOTJ, and of course ( according to their rhetoric ) the Jedi seek to promote the balance of the Force as opposed to an ascendancy of the light side into a dominant position. I guess I would say that the Jedi eschew dark side use of the focused, fully intentional variety such as that required to conjure lightning - where the dark side is not balanced by use of the light side. It still seems fair to say that the Jedi "align" with the light side in that in non-combat situations they would have no problem with fully immersing themselves in it.
     
  13. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Brilliant insights Tzizvvt78 =D=

    I think it's more they're not too sure, so they don't want to commit one way or the other, and let viewers interpret. They were planning on having the spirits of Darths Bane and Revan appear in the Mortis arc as fully cognizant ghosts.

    I suspect the illusionary aspect is something that occurs with all Force spirits - namely, their appearance as blowy glue transparent people or dark smoky things. ;) It's not as if they're actually made of blue smoky stuff - they don't appear on camera, or even (usually) to non-Force sensitives. The physical appearance of the spirit is solely in the mind, thus the malleability of their appearance - Jedi appear as simple, humble ghosts, but we see Sith spirits in the EU choosing to manifest as dark wraiths of fear to genuinely enormous giants composed of fire or lightning. We even see this transformation directly in Tales of the Jedi Companion, where the Sith spirit bound to Shas Dovos' spellbook grows from smaller than human stature into a vast specter before him.

    So the actual appearance of the warriors in their robes and hats is an illusion projected into Yoda's mind, but the spirits making the projection are very much there. And there is a very blurry line between spirit and the Force, for the Force is made up of the energy of 'luminous beings,' which is why becoming one with the Force is different to retaining one's identity. Some of the 'information' of the identity can and does degenerate with Sith spirits, which is why Ajunta Pall's spirit is a lost, confused echo of his former self. It can be difficult to distinguish between the successful preservation of identity and the dissolution of one's identity into the Force with such spirits.

    Indeed, that's the greatest evidence for them being true shades of dead Sith, other than the blurbs you mentioned. Illusions can't promise to warn the living Sith and then do so, and I cannot ever imagine the Five Priestesses actively leaking Yoda's location to the Dark Lords so that they can try and kill him, even in a test.

    That's another thing I loved about Sacrifice, as it actually provides some information about the mechanism of Sith spirits, and their ability to manifest themselves. It gels so well with the EU, as we see so many instances of such feeding on dark emotions or even on one's life energy[​IMG] to fuel Sith immortality, e.g. Exar Kun with Gantoris and Kyp Durron, or the Dovos spellbook spirit growing in stature as it feeds on his terror.

    And of course the Sith would undo themselves through their own arrogance. Seventeen poor Sith warriors whose names are lost to history just wanted to brag about Yoda's fear feeding their hunger and feel like powerful Sith Lords, and thus ruined the plans of a genuine Dark Lord's spirit. :p He probably wasn't too happy with them after that.

    You've hit the nail on the head. It's the failing of Sith 'undeath.' It's very sad, in many ways. They're so afraid of losing their identity in becoming one with the Force, they choose to experience a self-imposed hell of constant terror, struggling to cling to their identity in the physical realm and the insanity-inducing boredom of experiencing nothing beyond this. It's exactly what we see happen to the spirits of Ajunta Pall and Exar Kun.

    Absolutely anything, anything, is better to them than the alternative of death.
     
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  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Are we sure about this?
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In Dark Force Rising, it seems like Artoo, despite seeing Luke talking to Obi-Wan, couldn't see or hear Obi-Wan himself:

    "Yes, that's who I sometimes talked to on Dagobah."
     
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  16. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 26, 2010
    It is possible Sith spirits could willfully manifest to such a degree where even Artoo could see it, given that they seem far more bound in the physical world to the degree of almost corporeality.

    Sith illusions, for instance, show up on sensors. But otherwise, in terms of the average ghost, no...
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Fallanassi illusions also show up on sensors.
     
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  18. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 26, 2010
    I think Sith and Fallanassi illusions, unlike Force powers that seem superficially similar, are more like astral creations; the former impact the world and individuals as if they are real - to a fatal degree - unless one recognises them as illusions.

    Force phantoms are even more 'real,' i.e. entirely corporeal, and recognising them for what they are doesn't change that. I think the mechanism behind that is that they're essentially Sith illusions but the astral form is fed by the siphoned Force energy[​IMG] of the life form to which it is bound. Of course, outright creation of corporeal bodies is not outside the realms of Sith sorcery; it's what Nadd and Revan intended to use Sadow's alchemical apparatus to do, one to create a vessel for his own spirit, the latter to embody his enemy and defeat him.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
  20. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Pfft.

    This has nothing to do with the Wherefore Art Thou Darth series because a discussion on Sith immortality has nothing to do with WHY the Darths are calle-

    - dammit.

    Fine, take your miserable victory! :mad: :p
     
  21. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    When?
     
  22. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Off the top of my head, I would guess it's implicit in Dark Lords of the Sith when Ulic and Nomi lead a Republic attack force to the Empress Teta system to fight the Krath and Aleema is using Sith illusions against the Republic fleet.
     
  23. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Gotcha. :p

    Sinrebirth and I have been having some interesting talks on the Darth sect of late. My current thinking:

    Darth is derived from both darr tah and Daritha. As per TOR writers, it's an ancient Sith word, but one that was introduced to them by the Rakata. Of course, given that the ruler of the Infinite Empire was the Over Predor, it begs the question as to what the title meant to the Rakata, and I'm now convinced it was a title the Rakata bestowed upon the Sith, the "Dark Lords of the Rakata," an interesting parallel to the Sith proclaiming the Heresiarchs their Jen'ari.

    What would Darth translate to? Well, I think combining darr tah - triumph over death - with Daritha - Emperor - would yield something like "Immortal Emperor," however I'll stipulate the 'Emperor' part is closer in meaning to 'God-Emperor,' 'God-King' or 'God.' That way, it makes sense of Andeddu's usage of the title, as the Darth or Immortal God-King of Prakith, and also links to the 'Immortal gods of the Sith.' (Darth Typhojem, anyone?)

    Adas and his Shadow Hand are a sort of Rule of Two, only with an Empire of subservient Sith beneath them, similar to Revan's hard-learned lesson on having only one apprentice. Bane of course takes the Duumvirate concept and turns it into "there shall only be two Sith," but there's a potential link here between the Darth title and this elitist concept of having a supreme Lord and one apprentice. Probably has much to do with why Darth became a warning for others to bow down or be destroyed; it signifies proclaiming oneself the supreme viceroy of the dark side (Sadow and his Shadow Hand Daragon?) and embracing the ideological lineage of Adas and his Shadow Hand, and rejecting any other Lords. Of course this does lead to destructive infighting if more than one proclaim themselves such, which is what see in the New Sith Wars (probably helped by the Creed of Ruin, although one wonders if the Creed of Ruin's last line "There is no death, there is immortality" is suggestive of it being a sort of codified Darth creed), but also, interestingly, the Sith species all the way from 27,700 to 6,900 BBY.

    I think it was the Dark Jedi who introduced the Rule of the Strong, with things like one Sith King (Hakagram) and his Shadow Hand being done away with, with, initially, multiple Dark Lords in simultaneity. However, certain among them (Darth Andeddu) inherit the Darth lineage, and form a sort of Shadow Council of behind the scenes rulers whose immortal bodies "sleep in stone" in the Great Temple (a deliberate thing, not some spirit haunting a tomb). As per Empire's End, they "[hold] sway for centuries," resurrecting Ragnos to record the time-travelling amulet message after the GHW, and generally ensuring the Sith ideologies are revived whenever their living compatriots' Orders fall. The Darth title's link to being reserved for those cheating death is strengthened in the fact Vitiate and his Empire, significantly, take the title where their forebears, largely, did not. Of course, the Darth title loses some of its significance when Vitiate takes on the title Sith'ari (translated literally as Perfect or Supreme Lord, but meaning Overlord or Sith Emperor), and the Darth title merely becomes associated with cheating death (through Vitiate), ultimately resulting in that aspect of the Darth title's meaning being lost entirely, and only its "Kark everyone else!" elements being retained.

    Of course, the "bow down or be destroyed" doesn't quite work in two incarnations of Sith Orders we see, where Darths are a cred a dozen: Vitiate's and Krayt's. However, this works surprisingly well if you see the Sith beneath Vitiate and Krayt as being mere extensions of their Emperor's will - hence things like "Emperor's Hand," "Emperor's Voice," "Emperor's Wrath," "the Fists" etc. They're both obsessed with having mere tools into which they pour their will, e.g. the Children of the Emperor and Krayt's Sith troopers. Thus, those beneath the Emperor are given the title Darth as well, as they are all mere "embodiment of death," as Baras says - vessels for the Emperors Vitiate and Krayt, hands, fists, and feet too... :p Thus, Vitiate and Krayt deviate from the Rule of the Strong, Rule of Two(-lite, in the case of Vitiate breaking away from the Sith'ari and Shadow Hand tradition) and the Palpatine-esque Rule of One, and embrace the ideology of "One Sith" - themselves, and their unified, cohesive Order which they see as nothing more than parts of themselves.
     
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  24. Mother_Talzin

    Mother_Talzin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Interesting discussion, but I wouldn't limit it to Sith immortality, but anyone using the darkside of the Force. CW gave us Mother Talzin, a witch described as immortal, that can pass between the physical and spirit realms via ichor. She has a cult that worships her and covens / clans of Nightsisters and Nightbrothers that follow her. In the Son of Dathomir comic, we learn that she mingled her magicks with the Sith abilities of Sidious. If any darksider has maintained the 'self' after 'death', it would be her - I'd like to see it explored further.
     
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  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Theoughout TCW, we see both Sidious and Talzin chanting spells and creatint illusions. I wonder who taught who what.

    Talzin is an intriguing character because she seems to blur the line between Sith and Nightsister.
     
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