main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

PT Where's the love for Count Dooku?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ObiAlKenobi, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Hi, I just red that the lightsaber of Sifo-Dyas was the first lightsaber given to Grievous by Dooku for early training. Though this is legends now, it would fit perfectly into the theory that it was Dooku, who placed the lightsaber of Sifo-Dyas before the end of the clone wars in Sifo-Dyas's shuttle, crashed on Oba Diah's moon, shortly before the Jedi would find it. And that would also explain the very delayed alarm signal received by the Jedi-Temple twelve years after the crash.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  2. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Dooku was a principled character as shown in AOTC and ROTS. A more civilised character for a more civilised age.
     
  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except for the "civilized" scene where he tries to feed prisoners to monsters?
     
  4. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Haha I meant in the context of the Rebel scum and questionable ST characters. I believe there was a deleted AOTC scene where upon capture, Dooku grants an audience to Padme. And he requests/offers Naboo to join his cause. He states his principles that the Republic is corrupt and "it's time to start over." I actually think that scene would have been cool. Although it had Anakin just standing at the side pointlessly, which is why I think it was cut.

    Yes of course by the time Dooku agreed to the executions, I think those principles were shown to be questionably a political gimmick. Mind you the Republic wasn't great. I only believed the Jedi were truly honourable. Much rather an Empire with the Jedi as the overseers.
     
  5. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    I hate it when I revive a thread an the following posters do post to something totally different, what they otherwise would never had answered, leaving my suggestions unanswered. :(
     
    Subtext Mining likes this.
  6. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    “Follow my lead”-Padme.

    I think if he re-shot it with a little more reaction from anakin, I’d be better with than without it.

    Although he doesn’t need to emote much.
     
    DarthTalonx likes this.
  7. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes I quite like that one. I also found the deleted scene with Obi Wan and Windu interesting since it discussed the boy's attachments.

    As for Dooku, I liked that line he says about "It's time to start over." I actually think Dooku is a very interesting character. Complex. Principled, but power hungry. He genuinely seems disappointed Obi Wan won't join him. Genuinely thinks of Qui Gon, his fallen pupil. Genuinely seems distraught that he must order the droids to kill the Jedi, offering Windu a surrender.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Wow. I see the complete opposite. Nothing about Dooku seems genuine, except for his cowing to Sidious at the end of AOTC and the look of fear on his face before Anakin executes him. Almost everything he says is a mixture of truth and lies trying to deceive someone. In the scene with Obi-Wan it seems absolutely knows that the conversation is a charade and will go nowhere. Why in the hell would he think Obi-Wan would turn against the Jedi and join him? If he cared about Qui-Gon, why serve the man who orchestrated his death? And do you seriously think he cared about the Jedi dying? He set up the clone war to RESULT in the eradication of the Jedi.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Lies, deceit are his ways now. Like Yoda's quote.

    I don't think Dooku was straight up being honest no. But I think some part of him was principled and genuinely believed that the Republic had to be swept away. Naturally he didn't divulge his true plans to the newly formed Separatist Council. Important detail that they would be wiped out by the end of it.

    But I think whilst he was a Sith now, his political views were genuine. That the Republic was corrupt. And it was time to start over. There were interesting excerpts in both Labrynth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith novelisations where his views are shown. Also I loved the ROTS scene where Palpatine says "Do it" to Anakin and Dooku realises "Treachery is the way of the Sith" and I wonder whether he was about to say something?

    I agree, Dooku would have appeared more genuine had he not been so keen to kill Jedi. To be fair, he only turns truly against the Jedi by the time he engages Anakin and Obi Wan. Up until that point he offered Windu two chances to surrender. I'm not saying I support the Sith though. But I only believe the Jedi to be good. Not the Republic.
     
  10. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    There is the comic "Son of Dathomir", where Dooku kills Jedi-Master Tiplee in that hidden hangar at the asteroid near Ord Mantell. That occurs in the issue 3 of four parts of that series. "Son of Dathomir" is a comicazation of a formerly cancelled TCW-arc.

    In this comic-series, Dooku teams up with Darth Maul to fight Sidious. I don't want to spoiler much but here again we see classical Dooku doing one thing and turning away from it when he sees the tide turning.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Being "genuine" about destorying democracy to set up a dictatorship that you rule isn't a positive quality.

    The Empire was much MORE corrupt. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the better option.

    Wrong. He orchestrated the war from the beginning with the goal of eradicating the Jedi; including selecting Jango Fett because he was a proven Jedi killer. Be aware that Anakin also surrendered to the CIS after his defeat in the droid factory and Dooku was going to execute him by feeding him to monsters. Dooku accepting your surrender is no guarantee that he wouldn't turn around and execute you later.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Being "genuine" about destroying democracy to set up a dictatorship that you rule isn't a positive quality.

    The Empire was much MORE corrupt. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the better option.

    Wrong. He orchestrated the war from the beginning with the goal of eradicating the Jedi; including selecting Jango Fett because he was a proven Jedi killer. Be aware that Anakin also surrendered to the CIS after his defeat in the droid factory and Dooku was going to execute him by feeding him to monsters. Dooku accepting your surrender is no guarantee that he wouldn't turn around and execute you later.

    You seem to be playing devil's advocate here; and Dooku shows some glimmers of a man who once had redeeming qualities in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and perhaps in TCW which I admittedly don't watch; but as far as the Legends EU and the films he was a terrible, heartless, xenophobic man without an ounce of honour left in him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    HevyDevy likes this.
  13. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Out of all the canon sith Dooku seems to be the most not evil of the bunch.
     
  14. Fuzel

    Fuzel Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    I can't be the only one who feels lost in these giant threads.
     
  15. Kaleesh-Cyborg

    Kaleesh-Cyborg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Dooku is my second favorite character in the Star Wars universe. I've skimmed some of the existing discussion going on in this thread about his questionable remorse(?) over killing Jedi. There is no doubt that he had his principles. Someone previously mentioned the deeper looks into his character through Labyrinth of Evil and the Revenge novelization and I have to agree that these two novels expound on his character to a deeper level than what is shown in the films or the Clone Wars series. One thing I found worth noting in Labyrinth was his obvious disgust with Grievous' habit of collecting lightsabers as trophies from the Jedi he killed. To me, this eludes to an inner remorse over having done what he felt he had to do in turning against the Jedi. This is just my interpretation of this information, but I think it makes sense.
     
  16. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    I love what he represents in the films, but I think the ROTS novelization robs him of that. By the movies, you think he truly believes in the Separatist cause (tho given that he is also responsible for the creation of the clones, maybe that is shaky too), but I just think he was told by Sidious that a Sith controlled government can only happen if there's a civil war. Still, I like to think he believed in the CIS cause to replace the Republic.

    But the ROTS book clearly shows he's a dishonorable, terrible, xenophobic, human-centric man who is just using the CIS, and is planning to join the Empire.

    Still, he is a great character.
     
    PCCViking and heels1785 like this.
  17. Kaleesh-Cyborg

    Kaleesh-Cyborg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Agreed. He definitely has a problem with non-human creatures and it's abundantly clear in the novelization of Revenge. It does expound on him disdaining the corruption of the Republic as well (I'm only a few chapters into my first read of the novel), but I like the dimension it brings to his character. What I have always liked about him from the films and the TV series is the dignity and elegance. I like to refer to him as a "sophisticated jerk", gifted in wit to the point where he can make an opponent feel less than an inch tall with just a few big words.
     
    HevyDevy, Snafu55, Sudooku and 2 others like this.
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Why? It's not like he even gives an empassioned speech. He assure the CIS leaders victory while knowing that they and their people will suffer casualties in a war he has orchestrated to be especially bloody. Then he gleefully tells Sidious that the war has begun.
     
  19. Kaleesh-Cyborg

    Kaleesh-Cyborg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2017
    The Separatists were all pawns. Dooku in all his aristocratic glory was a master chess player. The irony is that he himself was found to be a pawn just as expendable as everyone else he had set up to die.

    Speaking of his death, I don't think Dooku was truly afraid in the moments before Anakin killed him. I think more than anything, he was brutally shocked by Sidious' betrayal. The novelization goes into what Sidious had originally told him about how the plan would unfurl. Sidious in no way implied, "Oh, by the way, my dear Dooky, you're going to die."
     
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    How come Dooku is seemingly allowed to possess a title and it's not defined as the path to the dark side, even after he leaves the Jedi order?
     
  21. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Well good point. That is my assumption really.

    Still, when did he say he know they will suffer high casualties in the film? All we know is he orchestrated the war. Which as far as we know, just means he is aware of Palpatine's plan to destroy the Republic. Plus, those were only the corporations he was using, not legitimate Separatists (until Episode III, I guess, but that hasn't been explained at all really).

    One can look at it as him wanting to join the Empire, but I prefer to keep the tragic element to his character.
     
  22. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Supreme Chancellor, you and I are on the same side. I love democracy. I love the Republic. Well actually I'm more a fan of the Jedi rather than the corrupt Republic. I personally would have been for the Jedi junta led by the Jedi Council to clean it up before simply handing everything back to the Senate following a successful government reshuffle (which was sadly stopped owing to Anakin's betrayal in ROTS).

    I wasn't saying Dooku was good. Far from it, he is clearly shown to be bad. But I do believe some of the advocated principles he is calling for (even though the Sith are simply USING the CIS) are genuine. In that they wish to expunge ineffectual leadership from the galaxy.

    Of course he and Palpatine had other plans too. And indeed Palpatine had plans (i.e. to replace him) that even Dooku seemed unaware of.

    I don't think we are shown the Empire to be corrupt though. The Republic, yes. The Jedi complacent yes. The Empire having quite a few nutcases yes. But it does not seem corrupt. Indeed in ANH, ESB we see officers legitimately questioning about what the Imperial Senate will think. We see officers appointed on merit (Piett) etc.

    I don't think we are shown Mothma etc to be non corrupt either in ROTJ. Merely that the main heroes (Han, Luke and Leia) to be genuine in their intent.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    He didn't advocate for any principles though. What about him was genuine? From what your telling me you are basically making up qualities of the character that don't exist in the film. If we take into account Legends EU such as Dark Rendezvous then maybe you have a point. But even if you take a look at the ROTS novelization, he was a heartless, corrupt, monster.
     
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Why would he not be "allowed" to possess a title? The Jedi can't tell him what to do, because he's not a Jedi anymore.

    The Jedi clearly still hold great respect for him as a person even though he's chosen not to follow all of their ways. The Jedi aren't religious zealots. Just because you're not a Jedi doesn't mean you can't still be a good person. The Jedi guidelines exist as one-size-fits-all rules to keep adherents on the straight and narrow, because not all adherents are the same, and while some may be able to handle straying a little from the path, others may not--and this is especially true for young Jedi, who are still growing and developing and are particularly susceptible to temptation. But Dooku was an old and venerable master when he left. The Jedi thought he had enough strength of character to remain a basically good person even as he re-entered the secular world, simply by virtue of having once been a great Jedi Master. They were wrong.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Jedi aren't allowed to possess anything. Leaving the order shouldn't mean that all the things that lead one down the path to the darkside no longer apply. Yet the Jedi have no conception that Dooku could be down that path.