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PT Where's the love for Count Dooku?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ObiAlKenobi, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Oh, wrong is such a strong polarizing word[face_sigh] . I in this case I would rather prefere to state that there are some ambiguities in Dooku's behavior which are leading to contrary interpretations of his actions and (often very pathetic) speeches.

    Actually I doubt that Dooku trusted Sidious that much. Somebody said here, that Sidious was just a bit paranoid of killing Ventress who was completely loyal to both, which I doubt. She was loyal to Dooku and her loyalty and admiration for him were surely surpassing her loyalty to Sidious thus being a threat to Sidious. Sidious in TCW-season 3 "Nightsisters" says clearly that he feels a disturbance in the force about Ventress.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

    And please let's examine how Dooku executed the killing of Ventress. He just ordered his commando-droids to bombad the ship on which Ventress was after her ginivex-fighter was made nearly unusable by Anakin. What seems to be a mere compliance to his master's order to kill Ventress is in fact a try to save her life because Dooku deems her capable to escape that forlorn star-ship. If he really wanted to kill her, he would let her end the fight and if she would have come back to Serenno afterwards he would have choked her to death like he did with his other apprentice, Komari Vosa, after Jango Fett brought her to him. But he just couldn't do that - not with his favorite assassine Asajj Ventress.@};-

    And after Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ventress there was another try of Dooku to topple Sidious, if you watch closely: It was in TCW-season 6 "The lost one" when the Jedi tracked that signal of the space-ship of Sifo-Dyas at that moon of Oba Diah, where the Pykes killed him at the orders of Tyranus. Unfortunately Yoda went directly to the current Supreme Chancellor to ask him about the details of that long-ago mission after Jocasta Nu told him that the chancellor's office is keeping that matter secret.:rolleyes:

    Of course after Yoda's visit in his office, Sidious is interrogating Dooku. He is asking his old apprentice very bluntly in a quite suing manner how it could happen that the Jedi came to know about that crashed ship and it's signal. A question everybody should ask at this time. And then that scene when Sidious orders him to finish this loose end. Now we see again Dooku hesitating and pretending that this would be an issue hard to solve. Of course he finally complies. Then we have that intraplanetary force-choke of Sidious on Dooku. And I suppose Sidious to be fully aware of Dooku's newest plot against him. This force-choke is not just a whim out of sadism or allure. It is instead the punishment of an illoyal apprentice.

    This time Dooku didn't want to get involved personally but he expected wanted the Jedi to be clever enough to use this volatile information to discover the truth about not only the creation of the clone-army but also about who is behind all that, even when it reveals Dooku's own guilt having been responsible for the killing of Sifo Dyas. That was Dooku's offered sacrifice. But Dooku overestimated the Jedi's intelligence.

    Actually it was not Dooku who did trust Sidious to much. It were in fact the Jedi who were trusting Palpatine to much.
     
  2. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 31, 2014
    Sorry, double posting :(
     
  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Right because the Jedi were the ones who believed Sidious when he told them he would help them if they were defeated...oh wait no that was Dooku.o_O
     
  4. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    I would like a spinoff movie of him in the Jedi Order, trying to get on the council with Qui Gon as his apprentice.
     
  5. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 25, 2014
    I feel Count Dooku is a very underrated character. If you really look at his back story, he is a complex character with sympathetic motives. I really wish he was in the films longer though.
     
  6. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    So do I. If they did another film I'd want it to be when he leaves the Jedi and perhaps confines in Jocasta or Qui-Gon. However, because Lee is Dooku for me and his venerable age, I wouldn't be upset if it were animated if my Tiger King supplied the voice. :)
     
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  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Problem is - he can't confide in Qui-Gon, because Qui-Gon was a Force-Ghost by that point.
     
  8. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I make no such assumptions.

    I likewise agree with Sudooku, it is the Jedi that trusted Sidious too much.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's true that in the TCW-verse, Dooku becomes Darth Tyranus before Qui-Gon's death - but I can't see Dooku confiding in Qui-Gon during that period.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  10. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    That's you, then.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Mostly because Qui-Gon is too nice a guy, in TPM, to get behind the planned murder of 10,000 Knights/Masters, and an unknown number of Padawans.
     
    mikeximus likes this.
  12. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

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    Aug 25, 2014
    Qui-Gon wasn't exactly the nicest guy though was he lets be honest :p
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    True - he can be a little harsh with Jar-Jar, and Watto. But he's basically brave and compassionate, in TPM.
     
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  14. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I was thinking of the opportunistic way he set Anakin free just because he had a high midi count, lets say Anakin had..15 tops and not 20,000 would he have bothered to help him? probably not; he wasn't there "to free slaves" after all, and ethically speaking didn't Shmi just as much right to be free as Anakin did? if he was so sure everything was the will of the force why manipulate the chance cube himself? etc,

    but that's probably for a different thread, but yeah he's not evil by any means, but neither is he the Jesus type figure people sometimes paint him as (and yes I've heard the references) :p
     
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  15. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    IL I wasn't even thinking along those lines anyway. :p No, Qui isn't the nicest guy either. The Jedi aren't known to be 'nice.'
     
  16. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 31, 2014
    I just red the news today:

    Rest in Peace, Christopher Lee.

    We all will miss you.
     
    Darkslayer likes this.
  17. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2015

    Indeed - very True ...considering Count Dooku was once a Jedi and as 'Master Dooku' plus the fact how whilst he was a Sith Lord - he wasn't exactly like Palpatine or Anakin or for the matter the more violent delusional barbaric thugs of Korriban ... and given for instance - he wasn't always 100% passionate or emotional about things ... no wonder some say he was more of a Dark Jedi rather than really a Sith Lord ... considering Count Dooku:

    1.) Wasn't always Force-happy so when worked up into a rage and such compared to Palpatine or Anakin ...
    2.) Didn't downright commit horrific murders - well he was able to kill in cold blood but compare that to say Order/Protocol 66 - with also what atrocities Anakin carried out as Darth Vader OR where Palpatine never 'gave a Force' about anything and even murdered House Palpatine at the age of 17 ...
    3.) He did want a better Republic ... unfortunately Palpatine was too selfish ... and never 'gave a Force' about him ...
    4.) He did have a history with Master Yoda and the fact he did once reconsider returning to the Republic and Jedi Order ...
    5.) Lack of a 'banal' desire ... or a grand hunger for Power - compared to Palpatine or Anakin anyways ...
    6.) Well the lack of Yellow Sith Angry Eyes or where he was physically ravaged and deformed from intense exposure to the Dark Side (e.g. Palpatine aging faster than usual due to his Dark Side Aura, Anakin suffering severe wounds due to his carelessness, Darth Maul with the Sith Tattoos plus the fact surviving a decade in agony and yet being able to return, Ancient Sith Lords adorned with Tattoos or horrific injuries/deformities - e.g. Lord Simus in a jar, Darth Andeddu via Essence Transfer, Darth Sion as a walking talking Sith mummy-like corpse or Darth Nihilus a 'Wound in the Force...')
    7.) He probably retained somewhat still a degree of honor - well in dueling and the fact how he was abit disturbed when he injured both Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi ...
    8.) Count Dooku did somewhat still refer if not retain his Jedi roots and origins given where he was more referred to as Count Dooku rather than always Darth Tyrannus or the fact Count Dooku on Geonosis remarked 'as you can see my Jedi Powers are far beyond yours...' or 'I have become far more Powerful than any other Jedi ... even you ...'
    9.) Whilst he did have ambitions - he did remark to Obi-Wan Kenobi 'you must join me Kenobi! Together we will DESTROY THE SITH!' ... and he felt the Republic was corrupt and needed a change; he did consider hunting down the Sith in vengeance for Qui-Gon Jinn but then he felt at the same time the inevitable was inevitable ...
    10.) Count Dooku's 'honor' well - where the fact in the Arena Battle he remarked to Mace Windu 'MASTER WINDU! YOU HAVE FOUGHT BRAVELY AND WELL ... SURRENDER NOW ...' or pretty much the Battle Droids would destroy and kill them ...
    11.) His ideals; well the fact he claimed 'Sifo-Dyas understood ... he saw the future ...'
     
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  18. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 31, 2014
    Maul's tattoos weren't quite injuries. They appear when the nightsister-mother of a newly born nightbrother holds her son into an ichor-bath. Then the tattoos do appear. Maul at least had some other mentionable more severe injuries.
    Honestly, I doubt that Count Dooku ever wanted to take revenge for Qui-Gon. He killed cold-blooded his other former padawan Komari Vosa. He might have to kill himself to avenge her death too. [face_devil] He had his chance in "Son of Dathomir" to take revenge for Qui-Gon - in the Stygeon-prison where he was sent by Sidious to interrogate Maul, after Sidious abducted his former apprentice from Mandalore. But actually Dooku made a really bad figure in comparison to Maul in that Comic. ~ no love in this post for Count Dooku [face_blush] ~
     
  19. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2015

    Well - atleast Qui-Gon Jinn didn't:

    1.) 'Charge Master Yoda' to death with who the heck know's how many volts of Force Lightning ...
    2.) Murder his family or conduct a Protocol/Order 66 massacre slaughter Palpatine-style or what Palpatine did to House Palpatine at just 17 years old ...
    3.) Manipulate and Extort and murder the innocent ...
    4.) Play everyone for stupid ...
    5.) Not 'Give a Force' about no-one unlike Palpatine who coldly ordered anyone of no more use to be 'put to sleep' for good ...
    6.) He wasn't a Walking 'Wound in the Force' and consume entire planets just to satisfy and further agitate his agony ...
    7.) Tell Padawans and Jedi Initiates and Younglings 'YOU MUST KILL ME TO ACHIEVE GREAT POWER ... YOU WILL BE SELFISH!'
    8.) Exactly fully tap or give in to the Dark Side of the Force ... well even if he did - he wouldn't have been as nasty or irredeemable as compared to Palpatine ... I mean atleast Darth Maul for instance - he was capable of caring for those whom he cared about namely Savage Oppress and how he knew how nasty Palpatine could be ... or Anakin who redeemed himself ... whereas Palpatine ... hoho ... considering Palpatine was already a cold blooded murderer by the time he met Darth Plagueis and how Darth Plagueis would further encourage and mold him into the very ignition for the fuse for the Sith Grand Scheme and how Palpatine never 'GAVE A FORCE!' to anyone or anything other than himself and getting MORE POWER!
    9.) Atleast Qui-Gon Jinn did see potential in Anakin and well he insisted the Jedi Council to take him in and also how he wanted Obi-Wan Kenobi to train Anakin ...

    Also considering Qui-Gon Jinn as maverick as he may have been bordering on 'Grey/Gray Jedi' ... at-least he explained Love and Compassion were the key to TRUE IMMORTALITY and he wasn't downright selfish compared to Palpatine who never 'gave a Force' about anyone ... I mean consider also how Palpatine in the EU and in the Darth Plagueis novel he was worked up enough to murder Cosinga Palpatine by 'smashing his head across the cabin...' and remarking to Darth Plagueis 'FOR A MOMENT MAGISTER ... I WAS A STORM! I WAS DEATH ITSELF!' and how Darth Plagueis coldly remarked that Palpatine then had the 'bloodlust of a serial killer...' Qui-Gon Jinn atleast was not one whom committed Patricide and Matricide one way or another ...


    Hmm - AH! My bad - what I meant more was other than physical deformation and ravaging I meant haven't you noticed Dark Side Users and a number of Sith still had Tattoos so they still somewhat subject their bodies to extremes or such dedication to display their commitment to the Dark Side of the Force ... I mean look at Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos and Ludo Kressh, the Ancient Massassi Sith ... later Darth Krayt's One Sith Empire had Tattoos somewhat of displaying their commitment to the Dark Side of the Force ... whereas interestingly Count Dooku and Palpatine didn't have them ... but I'm guessing it depends on the Sith themselves?

    What did you mean no love in this post? On the contrary Count Dooku is a Sith Lord I find intriguing and look - he's not like well Ancient Sith Lords whom were butchers and thugs and brutes ... I mean compared to Darth Nihilus whom ironically never 'gave a Force' about the Sith or anything despite being a Sith Lord ... or Darth Sion a 'walking talking Sith mummified corpse' whom 'had learned much of Pain but of all else he had learned little' as Darth Treiya/Treya remarked ... or perhaps the delusional Kaan whom was arrogant and selfish (by Sith standards) to the point Darth Bane decided to 'Force' him to use the Thought-Bomb subtly ... I mean Count Dooku ain't like these Ancient Sith Lords ...

    Then again at least - Count Dooku also was somewhat abit hesitant and troubled in that arcane Sith ritual Palpatine was preparing when they tried to attack Master Yoda mentally and emotionally ... taking advantage of Count Dooku's former ties with Master Yoda ... and where he had a look of concern if not hesitancy when Palpatine required a sample of his blood for the potion ...
     
  20. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Hi Sith-Camp,

    With "no love" I meant in contrary to the thread-title I didn't say something nice about Dooku in that post of mine.

    Regarding Sith-Tattoos: These times 1000 - 17 BBY and even during Palpatine's Empire were much different from Golden Age-Exar Kun-times. Imagine Palpatine having Sith-Tattoos in his face while applying to become Senator for Naboo or Chancellor later. :lol And his master Darth Plagueis didn't had treasorous tattoos either. Sith = Top secret - understand?
     
  21. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    The Sith Camp: no where did I say Qui-Gon was evil.

    Just that he is no saint like some want to paint him as...that doesn't mean he wasn't basically a good person.
     
  22. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Luceno should do a Dooku novel akin to his Plagueis and Tarkin novels in honor of Sir Christopher.
     
  23. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Cushy would support that. ^ =D= I might even consider buying it.
     
    Darkslayer likes this.
  24. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Maul's markings could be a skin pattern or something performed on infants after birth. EU doesn't count and unlike the EU, adolescent Maul already had his markings.

    Neither Dooku or Ventress were shown with "Sith Eyes", both could've been body and image proud. Maul just did not care as already he cast an frightful and intimidating image and there was no hiding him. Anakin could've cared about his image for the same reasons as Dooku and Ventress, plus he was still thinking of Padme. Only once he was in ruin did he not care as he was already a monster. Palpatine its clear that the eyes are voluntary selected at will and can be hidden, as Emperor he hid under the guise of being attacked and disfigred to no longer care about the eye issue, which in canon his body was disfigured from his own lightning. Its likely his own Lightning backfiring just revealed his true form.


    Count Dooku held Maul in very high regard and revered him. He was delighted about Opress bing of the same bloodline and to have an apprentice warrior of the same caliber of Darth Maul would've in his mind made him invincible . None of that offers any resentment on his part towards the then presumed dead Sith Lord:

    Talzin: You have heard of the sith warrior Darth Maul, have you not.

    Dooku:A warrior of the same caliber

    Dooku: I foresee we will do great things together.
    I shall teach you the ways of the dark side.
    Soon your powers will rival that of the great sith Lord Darth Maul.
    We will be even more powerful than Lord Sidious.
    We shall rule the galaxy together, my apprentice.

    Maul's power and evil presence was looming over Dooku as he was tuning into the Force by concentrating on his connection to Savage :

    Dooku: Something is rising... Something sinister..
    :
     
    mes520 likes this.
  25. Darth Xalfrea

    Darth Xalfrea Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Oh definitely. Seems like a logical continuation, with the way Dooku was involved in the Plagueis novel.

    Anyway, Dooku. I argue that if it wasn't for Christopher Lee and the way he gave his performance, he wouldn't have gone over that well as a villain, and that wouldn't have resulted in his character expansion.
     
    mes520 likes this.