Which Dark Side mechanics do you prefer?

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Blithe, Jan 19, 2007.

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  1. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Oh, oh, oh... the Revised and Expanded 2nd edition got away with the "one power per pip" thing?

    Really?

    That would be retarded...
  2. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Huh? I assume you meant "...one power per 1D thing?"

    :confused:

    And if so, why would that be retarded, again?
  3. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Because that would mean that the Emperor would know only a paltry amount of powers compared to his actual ridiculousness? Same with Yoda?

    It'd be like 36 total powers rather than something akin to the sum-total of nigh-complete Force knowledge...
  4. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Not necessarily. Keep in mind that at the Emperor's level of power, increasing his Force dice codes, even at, say, an earlier time like only a few years post-ROTS is EXTREMELY costly. When you take into account the fact that the Emperor was forced to constantly burn Force and Character Points to prevent the Dark Side from destroying his body, and the insane cost it'd take to raise his die codes from their ROTJ level to his DE power, it'd be much more efficient -- given that he's the most powerful Force-user in existence at that point anyway -- to instead only use 5 Character points (and one week training time) and learn a single power by itself (no die code increase) instead of 30 or 40 (same number of days training time) to learn one and increase his code by one pip. So they could have the same level of nigh-complete knowledge with those same die codes.

    It makes just as much sense for Yoda as well, who'd probably scorn at the pursuit of more power instead of knowledge...

    EDIT: To be fair, the Emperor probably did have teachers in the forms of Holocrons and ancient texts (only 50% more Character Point cost instead of double), though it'd still be 3 or 4 times as many character points overall...
  5. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    dp4m, it would only be 6 powers less overall, i think you have the wrong end of the stick

    when you spend 20 cp's to learn control/sense/alter, you gain ONE power, but for every pip afterwards you earn a pip AND a power unless you just learn a power like blithe spoke about.

    So that first die is the only time you'd lose out on a power compared to 2nd edition rules. :)
  6. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    If anyone else has been wondering why d20's Dark Side is so different, so much more lenient, and less frightening, and less effective... well, this could very well be why.



    Wow. Just wow.[face_plain] :oops:

    Let's hope the Sith line of thinking doesn't carry over to the Saga Edition's staff, too.
  7. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    More & more, I'm glad I'm sticking to WEG d6

    "Dark side/schmark side. It don't matter. All that matters is power..."
    --D20 munchkin
  8. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    does he even realise where Jacen and Vergere's methodology made them end up? Jesus Christ.

  9. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    It seems JD's line of thought is, to a lesser degree, shared amongst his ex-co-workers at Wizards. This post was from a thread over in the WOTC forums concerning Jedi Counseling 73, which says that using Force Grip/Telekinetic Kill does NOT automatically incur a Dark Side Point when used on a living being.

    First, in order to be fair, let's take a look at JC 73:


    Now using Force Grip to destroy droids is fine. I have no argument, there. Where I begin to question things is when it's not ALWAYS bad to use it on a living being. That is, simply put, using the Force for attack, causing harm, not knowledge and defense. Excusing certain instances by saying it would cause the least possible harm is another way of saying the ends justify the means, or in other words, it says, "By becoming like the Sith, at least for a short time, I can bring about peace."

    Though the ruling says the GM can give the player a DSP if he sees fit to, the intent behind the ruling isn't quite the same thing.



  10. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    How is using the Force to enhance your lightsaber combat so that you can kill things different from using the Force directly to harm or kill?
    </devil's Advocate>

    One big difference is that you can pull your punches (though I've never had a player say they were going to do so) so that you can use your Control to do less damage than the 5D base of a lightsaber (or whatever the D20 system has to say for itself). Also, you use your control & sense to affect your actions and enhance your performance, where as TK is to ALTER the universe arround you and other people.

    Fine distinction, but isn't there always?

    Yes, Luke could have just used a stun grenade...
  11. Goo_Child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    My group has this little policy of gaining just enough DSPs to not go dark (once a player did go dark and i really just had to kill him off... have to serve the balance and all that jazz.) Our female player feels the need to ALWAYS have 1 DSP. She says it "gives me that edge." I use the "will save" system to not get a DSP but i'm thinking about vetoing that rule... seeing that i firmly believe there is a dark side to the force and not just the drunkin babbling of big bird. I never played the D6 system (before my time... don't hate me) but it seems like it had better black and white views of the Dark Side.
  12. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Don't worry, Goo. We older, wiser D6ers are much more forgiving than Vader. [face_peace]

    Usually. [face_worried]

    Sometimes. [face_shame_on_you]



    Once in a while. [face_beatup]




    OK, maybe we aren't![face_skull]


    Even in the D6 community, before there ever was a D20, there was some argument over whether or not Luke got 2 DSP from choaking the Gammorean Guards at Jabba's palace. I figured he did, and that he tried to repent them during the rescue & battle on the Sail Barge. (Only repented one, but it's a start). I'd give him another repentance for trying to save the Gamorean who fell into the Rancor pit with him (as described in the Radio Script by Brian Daley).
    This gave him a (potentially) slight taint for Vader & Palpatine to pull & play with on the Death Star. For striking at the Palps in anger (even though he didn't succeed in hitting him), another DSP. Luke is back up to 2. He gets another for attacking Vader in anger when Vader suggested turning Leia, and a 4th for wailing on Vader when he was down and slicing off his father's hand. Luke had a 50% chance of going over to the Dark Side right then, and barely pulled back. I'd let him repent one for surrendering and letting the Emperor blast him with Force Lightning, and a second for bringing Anakin back to the lightside & forgiving him. Still, Luke is slightly tainted and has a lot to repent.
    But that's just my take.

    "Come here, Luke. Han wants to explain how he wants to make you an uncle." --Leia
    "Now, wait a minute..." --Han
    </expanded scene in radio script by Brian Daley>
  13. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Your way of thinking is the antithesis of the d20-ers it seems, Koohi.

    Anakin Skywalker, the protagonist of the saga, gained dsp's left right and center, but that was fine because he was always gonna go dark, but because his opponents in yoda, luke, et al are the good guys, they can't do a single thing to associate themselves with an evil doer like anakin.

    It's so Black and white, but in the wrong sense of it all... do you see what I mean?

    I know i keep making the same point again and again. I guess I hope one day it will be read by someone who'd take notice :p
  14. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Sorry to disappoint you. Just gotta be me, ya know?

    While Luke was always a goody two-shoes in ANH & ESB, I saw Luke's actions in RotJ as threatening to fall to the Dark Side after Vader's revolation in ESB, but pulling back at the last second to redeam not only Vader, but also himself. Hence Luke wore white in the first movie, grey & neutral colors in the second, and black in the third. Just a thought.

    As for the mechanics of it all...you say "Toe-Mah-toe", I'll say "Toe-May-Toe".[:D]
  15. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    hey, i'm with you on this, :p
  16. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Oh, well, I think this probably explains everything...




    Ah... I get it, now. If we don't like it, or can't model the game system to appropriately represent it, then let's just leave it all out! So if everything begins to not make any sense, then just ignore canon and pretend it doesn't exist! While we're at it, I don't like becoming tainted with Evil for using Dark Side Powers or committing Evil acts, so let's just pretend that isn't how the SW universe works, too!
  17. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "While we're at it, I don't like becoming tainted with Evil for using Dark Side Powers or committing Evil acts, so let's just pretend that isn't how the SW universe works, too!"

    Actually, that's not "player whining," that was from published official material. So for awhile, that really wasn't how the SW universe worked. I personally thought it was crap, and later publications have vindicated my position. However, you can't fault game designers for going along with official material.

    As far as the "Thought Bomb" deal, remember one of the Two Great Maxims of Gaming: If you stat it, the players will find a way to have it. (the other being that if you stat it, the players will find a way to kill it) The Death Star superlaser, the thought bomb, Force storms, are all meant to be plot devices instead of things that players & GMs have to deal in a more direct fashion.

    Besides, I don't recall seeing rules for making star clusters go supernova in my copy of the Tales of the Jedi Companion....[face_whistling]
  18. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    What official material stated that the SW universe worked that way?



    The Tales of the Jedi Companion only covered events from KOTOR up until the Freedon Nadd uprising...
  19. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    LOL!!!! And Force Speed (and the resultant Force Alacrity stuff) plus Force Flight aren't superhuman? Oh PLEASE!

    Not to mention the insane healing, making it possible for Force users to basically be like Trandoshans in terms of regeneration. **** me, seriously, the healing capablities haven't been shown in ANY EU source outside of WotC afaik. I think living forever is a pretty big thing too, yet that didn't stop them from statting Transfer Essence.

    I profanity in WotC's general direction.
  20. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Hmmm...
    That would mean we'd have to disregard Duel of the Fates (Obi-Wan's force-jumps), the entire Clone Wars cartoon, and most of General Grievous's scenes.
    In point of fact, we might as well just completely disregard all of the prequels and most of the novels (for instance, in Truce at Bakura, Luke fending off a squad of stormtrooper blasterfire because the local Imp commander wanted a demonstration or Luke using the Force to fly the Falcon and operate all of the weapons using the Force & TK in Courtship of Princess Leia).

    Now, I don't have a problem ignoring the prequels, because, IMNSHO they sucked, as did many of the novels (especially anything written by Kevin J Anderson), but some of the novels were very well written.

    Oh well. Maybe my distaste for the prequels somehow ties into my view of the Prequels. Or maybe not...
  21. Yuul_Shamar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2004
    star 4
    hmmm as i have no knowledge of the D6 system(thinking about getting a copy[face_idea] )

    but heres a piece of information from the WotC Power of the Jedi source book. theres like 3-5 feats that have prerequisites including character must not have x darksidepoints.
    in addition it adds another 2-3 lightside skills as to why the fact that skills being lightside matter lets take a look at the darkside source book,(in addition to other various things) a tainted character gets a +2 bonus to darkside skills and a -4 to lightside skills.
    a consumed/darkside character gets a +4 bonus to darkside skills and a -8 to lightside skills.
    lightside skills including:-B , heal another, force light, sever force(particularly nasty against darksiders), and a few others i cant remeber(dont have books with me atm)

    i hope this helps i just wanted to give u a little more information, use it as u will.
  22. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Ooops. What I meant to say ways "maybe my distaste for the prequels has colored my view of the D20 system."

    Sorry about that. Sometimes I wonder if my brain is connected to my hands when I'm typing.
  23. Yuul_Shamar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2004
    star 4
    well the d20 version might have done it the way they did to make it easier to run the occasional darkside campaign or to make a vilain. besides this is what house rules r meant for!
  24. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Had one campaign where everyone was a fallen jedi with 6DSP to repent. Some of them didn't make it. Campaign only lasted 3 sessions before 1/2 the party fell.

    OK, it was a cheap-shot. I wanted everyone to make nice complicated histories for their characters and how they acquired their DSP.

    I then used all their character ideas as NPC villains in later, completely unrelated campaigns.

    Plagerism can be useful... Was fun when a player recognized a character from his past...
  25. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "What official material stated that the SW universe worked that way?"

    During the New Jedi Order story arc, it was "revealed" that there is no external dark side of the Force. There was simply the internal dark side of the Force user. Therefore, you could supposedly do things like use Force lightning, and it not be inherently dark.* Therefore, as far as anyone knew, this actually was how the SW universe worked. In keeping with this "revelation," the Powers that Be at WotC attempted to come up with a game mechanic to keep up.

    Look, I'd rather this not turn into a d6 vs. d20 debate. Suffice to say that any game system is subject to abuse my munchkins and twinks.




    *This was something I personally disagreed with strongly at time of release. Moreover, I absolutely hated the game mechanic that WotC created, and banned its use in any of my games. Later official material (the Legacy of the Force story arc) vindicated my position:
    Show Spoiler
    It has been revealed that everybody who has espoused the theory of "no dark side," including Vergere from the NJO series is either a Sith Lord, or a Sith-wannabe.


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