Which is stronger the light side or the dark side

I think that Dooku WAS supposed to be the equal of Yoda in the Hangar Duel scene.

It's interesting how the Dooku v. Yoda duel is worded in the Art of Star Wars Attack of the Clones script.

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Suddenly, through the thick smoke, emerges the heroic figure of YODA. He stops on the smoke-filled threshold.

Silence. COUNT DOOKU steps away from ANAKIN to face the Jedi Grand Master.

Count Dooku: Master Yoda.
Yoda: Count Dooku.
Count Dooku: You have interfered with our plans for the last time.

COUNT DOOKU levitates machinery, hurling it at the tiny figure of the JEDI MASTER. YODA recovers and deflects the machinery. COUNT DOOKU then causes great boulders in the ceiling above YODA to fall, and again, YODA deflects the boulders which fall around him. YODA deflects Force lightning thrown at him by the enraged COUNT DOOKU.

Yoda: Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you.
Count Dooku: I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you, my old Master.

COUNT DOOKU continues to hurl Force lightning at YODA, who deflects every blast.

Yoda: Much to learn you still have.
Count Dooku: It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.

COUNT DOOKU whirls his lightsaber in a formal solute. YODA draws his lightsaber. Suddenly, COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries ever cut and thrust that COUNT DOOKU aims. Nthing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become more feeble, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of YODA'S speed and swordplay. His lightsaber is a humming blur of light. Finally, there blades cross and the fighting slows.

Yoda: Fought well you have, my old Padawan.
Count Dooku: The battle is far from over. This is just the beginning.

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I kind of like Dooku's "Even you, my old Master" that was cut. It makes Dooku much more Sith-y to me: rubbing his skill directly into Yoda's face. I also think I would have enjoyed the lightsaber battle had it started with Dooku Force-speed dashing across to attack Yoda while Yoda stands there parrying sword strikes.

 

Which is exactly the way a Jedi should fight: defense, not offense.

I think that Dooku was supposed to be incredibly powerful: he wiped the floor with a Jedi All-Star and the Chosen ONe, and then did pretty good against Jedi Master #1.

But I think the Hangar Duel was supposed to show, as I mentioned before, that the Dark Side, for all the power it gives, is ultimately useless if the other side (the Jedi) is properly calm and grounded in the Force.

Note that Anakin runs and gets zapped, while Obi-Wan absorbs the Sith Lightning with his saber and Yoda with his hand.

At any rate.

Scott, I don't think you and I are really that far apart - I've just been thinking recently about the Force and AOTC, and it seems there really IS a Dark Side to it.

And why can't you contrast the Dark Side with a "Light" Side, although that has never been referred to in anything SW, as far as I know.

Why IS the Force considered an ally? Ben in ANH suggests that it controls your actions, but you control it as well.

So what does the controlling? The Will of the Force?

One reason it seems that either the DS is distinct or else the Will of the Force is involved in the downfall of the Jedi is that basically two Sith users (Sidious and Dooku) are bringing down the ENTIRE Force, which is used by 10,000 Jedi plus however many other Force-sensitive life forms.

That's the one thing I don't really understand: if 2 Sith create such an imbalance, then how were there wars between thousands of Jedi and Sith far in the past? It would have ripped the galaxy apart!

There's a couple of things that I've theorized before:

(i) the more greed, corruption, pain, strife, et cetera in the GFFA, the more powerful the Dark Side is - thus, Palps and Dooku orchestrating corruption in the Senate, the Clone Wars - not only works to their advantage, but gives the Dark Side increased power.

(ii) Using the Force correctly goes beyond simply being calm and non-aggressive - it involves some aspect of right-thinking, for lack of a better word. The Jedi Order is serving a corrupt master and perhaps is becoming corrupt itself - and the Clone Wars are only exacerbating the divisions in the Order itself.

Since the Jedi are not THINKING/ACTING correctly, they are not using the Force as well as they could be (because the Force is beneficent by nature), so when the Dark Side is being used, the imbalance is greater and the easier the Sith are able to act.


But I doubt either of these explanations will prove to be true.

Scott - I've never heard that explanation for "gravity's silhouette" before - I think it simply means the effect that Kamino continued to exert a gravitational force on every other body in the same system.

From Dictionary.com: silhouette: n 1: an outline of a solid object (as cast by its shadow) 2: a drawing of the outline of an object; filled in with some uniform color v 1: project on a background, such as a screen, like a silhouette 2: represent by a silhouette

"Gravity's footprint" probably would have worked too, but it doesn't sound as cool as "silhouette".

 

Excellent points. I guess my next issue would be "What is The WIll of the Force?". I have always had a problem with this phrase in a story arch that seems to put so much value and importance in personal decisions and the consequences that just one individuals path can have on all those around them.

Is the Will of the Force something that is setting in place specific events to acheive certain goals, or is it more of an eastern ideal of balance, of simply exsisting. More of a que sera sera thing.

Granted there is the Prophecy and the Chosen One and all, but if, in order for the story to have any power, we have to believe that Luke had the option to kill Vader and join Palps then how can the Prophecy be any more than a suggestion of a possible future.


I am getting to a point here.

So, in my view, the Force is not an active sentient entity exerting influence on specific events. The fact that it "controls your actions" is that those who can feel it, who can sense it and tap into the greater knowledge of their surroundings can give them selves over to a heightened state of perception which then controls there actions in an unconcious way.

So if the Force does not have a specific will or any goals or wants, it can be neither light or dark. It just is. If the Force did have a specific will and a light and dark side, why would it require mortals to play out this drama? They are involved because it is they who bring the dark or light to the equation. The individual makes the choice as to how he/she/it will use the Force; either the restrained, calm symbiotic use of the Jedi or the angry, power seeking selfish use of the Dark Side.


But the Jedi would be untimately stonger as when the Jedi use the Force correctly according to their ideals, they reserve their energy by deflecting the attacks of thier foes and should there for always win by attrition.

Just how I look at things. I'm sure there are a million holes in this line of thought.

 

So if the Force does not have a specific will or any goals or wants, it can be neither light or dark. It just is. If the Force did have a specific will and a light and dark side, why would it require mortals to play out this drama? They are involved because it is they who bring the dark or light to the equation. The individual makes the choice as to how he/she/it will use the Force; either the restrained, calm symbiotic use of the Jedi or the angry, power seeking selfish use of the Dark Side.

Sounds considerably like Taoism.

 

But you CAN have free will AND a sense of destiny or a Will of the Force at the same time:

they are not exclusionary concepts. I've discussed this before, possibly in this thread.

The Will of the Force takes into account individual actions and works with them to try to find the right balance.

Which is why Anakin, IMHO, must have the chance to kill Palpatine in Episode III but is convinced not to.

Free will and the Will of the Force:

- Luke, don't go to Bespin - it's a trap, you don't know how true the vision was, and you're untrained. Luke goes, loses his hand, and barely survives. And finds out Vader is his father. Looks like maybe he shouldn't have gone? Dunno - but it was his choice to go - no one "forced" him to stay on Dagobah, including Ben and Yoda.

So then it's ultimate test time: the Throne Room in ROTJ - Luke is going Begbie on his dad, beating him down like nothing - Luke is lost in the midst of a Dark Side rage, when he cuts off Vader's HAND, which was robotic - and then he looks at his own hand.

Throws away his lightsaber, and becomes a Jedi Knight.

To me, that's the best example of the Will of the Force using one's individual free will and choices to create a beneficial type of galaxy.

But since the Force and Force-users have this weird symbiotic relationship, that is why the Force doesn't simply make everyone into puppets - the free will has to be there.

 

Sounds considerably like Taoism.

Yeah, I know a lot of people say the Force is a mixture of various eastern philosophies, but I have always seen a srtong resemblence to Taoism. (I'm far from an expert, just enjoy reading various translations). The Jedi remind me of the idea of the benevolent sage/warrior/ruler who seeks to use his power for the good of all an inline with nature. Even Yoda's strange speach patterns and his figures of speah remind me of the Tao Te Ching.

I only mention this to acknowledge the fact that I see it through those "glasses", which is why I may see things that aren't there etc.

 

To me, that's the best example of the Will of the Force using one's individual free will and choices to create a beneficial type of galaxy.

But since the Force and Force-users have this weird symbiotic relationship, that is why the Force doesn't simply make everyone into puppets - the free will has to be there

I agree with that totally. I think where I see it differently from others is that I don't think the Will of the Force is to bring balance between two distinct oppossing sides but rather to exsist in harmony with a natural order of things.

At the end of ROTJ I think things are in balance because those who would use the Force in a way that disrupts the natural way of the galaxy have been destroyed. Was the goal to bring balance betweent a light side and a dark side, the end of the saga wouldn't make much sense to me.

Using the Force correctly goes beyond simply being calm and non-aggressive - it involves some aspect of right-thinking, for lack of a better word. The Jedi Order is serving a corrupt master and perhaps is becoming corrupt itself - and the Clone Wars are only exacerbating the divisions in the Order itself.

This is really cool the more I think about it. Like Qui-Gon cheating a dice roll, or the Jedi letting themselves be pulled into the roles of Generals in a military conflict, there is a growing moral ambiguity among the Jedi that grows as Palps manipulations grow. Could he be purposely twisting the Jedi into these places where they are, for lack of a better term, lossing a spiritual center that is needed to use the Force to it's full potential?

 

Bang on.

It's probably the most original SW thought I've had in a while.

 

My insight here is not NEARLY as in-depth as these previous threads, but I always saw it as this...

There is only the FORCE...how it is USED, whether for good or for evil, depends on the person - HOW and WHY and WHAT they use it for.

The Sith use the same FORCE that binds the galaxy together-they only touch on the strengths that it can give to anger, and deception, and basic uses for evil.

The Jedi use that same FORCE for "knowledge and defense"-basically cutting out all the selfish things the Sith use the force for.

I always saw the issue (as stated before) as more of a MORAL issue, as far as how it's used. What is a mutually beneficial way of using the force for the "greater good?" what is considered selfish use, or crossing the line? it's a simple question of using the SAME governing special power and how it's applied in the difference between right and wrong...

Believing that, I feel that the Light side "USE" of the force is stronger - The dark use of the force is fueled by rage and hatred, which is generally uncontrollable, while the good use involves being calm, collected, and patient-which allows one to have CONTROL over the aspects of the force so that it can be put to good use whenever needed, at the level required.

Although the Darkside SEEMS to give more immediate power, it is ultimately UNsatisfying, and short lived - whereas the light side serves a more noble and overall effective purpose. ....