Lit Which Sith Faction are the best or rather Strengths/Weaknesses?

I came to wondering now just then on the Sith; I had posted a few weeks earlier about 'what defines a True Sith?' but this is something that sprung about from my mind - which Sith Faction was the best or rather Strengths and Weaknesses of the Sith Factions - so from the Ancient Massassi, to the Dark Jedi after then around the 100 Year Darkness, the Ancient Sith Lords whom from Korriban were violent and the 'beast-eat-beast' world where the weaklings die and only the most violent and the strongest survived, to the 'Revanchist's Sith Empire'... to the times of well the Sith Triumvirate with Darth Nihilus, Sion and Treiya ... or then there was the Brotherhood of Darkness whom Darth Bane absolutely hated and resented and practically killed off then there's Darth Bane and his Rule of Two Baneite System, there's Palpatine and Darth Plagueis whom had their views on the Rule of Two, then there's Darth Krayt's One Sith ... what is the best or rather hence the Strengths and Weaknesses then?

I mean I ask this because when I was reading Darth Plagueis in the EU on Wookiepedia - Darth Plagueis remarked to Palpatine when Palpatine was still doing his tenure as a Sith Apprentice '"You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." ... or where Darth Tenebrous himself being Darth Plagueis's own Sith Master remarked '"We Sith are an unseen opposition. A phantom menace. Where the Sith once wore armor, we now wear cloaks. But the Force works through us all the more powerfully in our invisibility." - and hence clearly drawing a difference between the Ancient Sith and the new generation then of Sith Lords by the time of the Rule of Two Baneite System where we see how Ancient Sith Lords are 'violent butchers' and wore armor and used well Sith Alchemy and Sith Swords and often more or less had violent practice towards one another for power ... given when Naga Sadow and Ludo Kreshh competed for the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith by the time of Marka Ragno's passing ...and the fact it seems that those of the Baneite Rule of Two system see themselves more 'civilized' Sith than the barbaric Ancient thugs of Korriban whom probably were more content and 'Force-Happy' lopping off one another's heads with Sith Swords instead of spending decades and decades of sowing seeds and playing political games ...

Any thoughts then? I mean of course then again one way or another - Sith in the end still:

1.) Are treacherous towards one another...look at Count Dooku's end...
2.) Are violent and selfish ... and hence cannot attain true peace or immortality ... as Qui-Gon Jinn remarked to Master Yoda ...
3.) Are never 100% friendly to one another; whether or not to continue the new generation or such - the fact how Darth Andeddu remarked to Darth Wyrlock III how 'knowledge is Power and Sith do not share Power!' and if Ancient Sith Lords always had a violent 'Beast-eats-Beast' mob-mentality ...
4.) Emotions ... just tonnes and tonnes of raw violent emotions ...
5.) More or less most usually meet a violent and horrible end ...
6.) More or less are tainted from the Dark Side one way or another and usually suffer a horrific physical scar or 'badge of honor' - well Sith Tattoos or horrific scars and injuries from battle or attaining immortality through nasty arcane rituals not too unlike Voldemort's 7+ Horcruxes ... or Palpatine being intensely concentrated in Dark Side Energy ...

 

My assumption is this is going to be moved to the EU section so I'll just go with it.

I think in any argument it comes down to Krayt's Sith and Palpatine's Sith, the only two factions that truly achieved the end of destroying the Jedi (or at least sending them into hiding) and ruling the galaxy proper. I would have to go with Krayt's Sith. Krayt seemed to find the ultimate way of creating a dominant Sith Order but ensured strength in numbers by setting himself up as the God-King of the One Sith. It turned out to be "somewhat" of a flaw since inevitably Darth Wyyrlok betrayed him, but he never would have tried that if Krayt was at full power.

 

Yeah, good call The Supreme Chancellor.

 

A Sith is identified by the following:

1. He must declare himself a sith.

2. The Force must be his ally.

3. He repudiates the Jedi way.

and 4.

4. He can destroy anyone who says he's not as Sith.

 

I think Sith work best outside of empires and orders, and better as loners. Of course I'm talking about Sith-based orders and empires, nothing wrong with a Sith carving out his own empire of sorts. In Sith Empires and Orders you're basically constantly trying to stay alive and you have little time for your plots and schemes when everyone's gunning for your head, and thus your position. Naturally, your typical Sith would say it's a weakness to avoid such a challenge, but I'd say the Galaxy itself and carving out your place in it is enough of a challenge. And as for the Banite Sith they are, by ideology, a suicide cult. Who would sign up for an organisation that either you die or the man training you dies and then you have to recruit someone who would kill you as well? I'm surprised the Bane line didn't end within a few decades and someone didn't just go 'taking an apprentice? nah, ill just do this myself'.

 

Well - not to mention: Violence, Raw Emotions, Selfishness, Despair, Anger ... and well Darth Plagueis remarked how a Sith 'starts and embraces the Dark Side from the Start!' to Palpatine in the novel - claiming Dark Jedi turned Sith or Dark Jedi whom think they are of the Sith are not true Sith but rather just delusional fakes ...

And the fact how a Sith must also be willing to accepted consequence and reject compassion in the absolute - given when Darth Plagueis was giving a lecture about applying Sith Lightning to Palpatine ...

But still - isn't it odd how the Sith - one way or another still are usually violent and needless to say kill one another - and yet in the end its just an endless cycle of unstable violence when surely like in Darth Krayt's One Sith Empire - you would want to have a single Sith Empire but with loyal Sith and not just thugs and violent mob-mentality time and again eh? And even with Darth Krayt - he still got betrayed at times and killed ... and the fact the problem still with the One Sith Empire is that some Sith Lords still had their own ideologies or where when Darth Krayt visited Korriban - his One Sith Empire was not approved by Ancient Sith Lords and how they 'sneered and mocked' him and accused him of being a traitor and being a heresy rather than being one continuing the Sith Lineage ... odd isn't it unlike the Jedi whom by default putting Gray/Grey Jedi or Dark Jedi - atleast by default the Jedi had the tenets of peace and compassion and for instance I couldn't imagine Master Yoda going 'true Power to gain ... KILL ME YOU MUST!' to a group of Jedi Initiates or Younglings or Padawans on their first day with him ...

 

We have canonical Light Sith, however. Mostly from the Old Republic game but also groups like the Jensaarai. Just as there's Dark Jedi, there are Sith who do not suffer from the Dark Side of the Force but have embraced the Light.

Starkiller is another example since while Kota CALLS him a Jedi, he uses nothing but his Sith training and raw emotion to wipe out endless numbers of Imperials. While you can argue he's not an actual Sith apprentice, Word of God has claimed Vader was training him as such. Also, that he was powerful as Maul if not Vader himself (which begs the question why Starkiller kicked Vader's ass twice).

Palpatine is also talking out of his butt, too, given Dooku, Anakin, Qel-Droma, and so many other "non-psychopath" Jedi who are arguably just as good at it as him. Darth Bane, of all people, started as a bitter ex-miner who still loved and felt compassion as well as guilt.

Darth Bane's Sith Order, I think, personally, is just the Sith Order MOST devoted to the concept of being a Neutral Evil embodiment of darkness.

They're the Sith fundamentalists.

Even the Ancient Sith, for example, wanted to team up and destroy Darth Vitiate out of horror for what a complete monster he was.

The Sith ideal is distilled down to selfishness and a relentless pursuit of strength as well as knowledge (because the two are identical). As such, if they were teaching people to follow them loyally, they might benefit from such but they would also be weakening themselves as they surrounded themselves with toadies. The idea of a Sith is they must constantly challenge themselves to become stronger and fiercer. The idea behind the Master and Apprentice/Rule fo Two thing is that the Master is as challenged by his apprentic and motivated to keep himself strong as he is by gaining the power of a skilled warrior.

Its insane but its important to remember the Sith derive meaning from their religion, just like the Jedi.
A Sith BELIEVES in this stuff.

Enough to risk death and destruction.

 

One thing I really regret is the West End Games adaptation of Dark Empire which is probably the best roleplaying game supplement ever made for an arguably questionable comic (albeit, I enjoyed it).

It gave the best description of the Dark Side ever when it said (paraphrased): "Luke Skywalker was surprised when he discovered the Emperor's teachings. Contrary to being nuanced or enlightened, they were crude, primitive, and brutal. The Dark Side emphasizes power and pride over anything else as well as discourages higher thinking. A Darksider lives in the moment and it is a struggle for Luke to continue to dwelve into these so-called mysteries."

In short, the Dark Side was portrayed as, essentially a lot less awesome than many fans have made it.

I think that should be the truth of the Dark. The Dark Side should be superficially beautiful and seductive but, ultimately, empty of wisdom or deeper meaning. Those who embrace it destroy themselves and others while weakening themselves as a whole. More like Morgoth who ruined his greatness seeking power than a Manichean equality.

Amusingly, the sourcebook also said the Dark Side wasn't evil but just chaos, destruction, and negative emotions. All which exist in nature in a neutral form.

It's just complete ******* are drawn to it.

 

Hello again! Very Very Very insightful posts!

Indeed - that's what I meant w' the Sith and well the Dark Side of the Force - how one way or another - SW Cannon or not - or EU - the Sith or a Dark Side user by default usually experiences at the very least conflicting emotions and raw violent emotions...

Look at what for instance its done to Palpatine both in the SW Cannon and EU where he firmly believed and at times was a very Powerful Sith Lord although for all his Powers where the Dark Side of the Force was also a curse to him given where he aged rapidly at times due to his intense immersion of the Dark Side; how he remarked to Darth Plagueis in the novel how when he murdered his family in pure utter rage and cold-blood how 'Magister ... for a moment I was a STORM!' and when he murdered Darth Plagueis in cold blood and how he had experienced an extreme intensity deep inside him as if a beast had awakened in him ...

And yet isn't it ironic for some Sith Lords whom take their ideals to extremes - where Kann's Brotherhood of Darkness was practically 'Bombed to Death' by Darth Bane via goading ... or Darth Nihilus whom ironic for a Sith Lord he didn't Give a Sith or Give a Force about the Sith - and yet he was a Sith Lord himself - and all he cared about was sustaining his hunger yet gradually getting more and more of his Powers and not caring about anything yet he later betrayed Treiya and Darth Sion ... and looking at the result - all he was was just a Wound in the Force ...

And the fact in the Darth Plagueis novel a chapter was called 'An Endless Cycle ... of Violence' ... and yet how Shaak Ti remarked to Galen Marek how Sith always betray one another ...

 

I think it's kind of the major failing of the Sith because they talk about the "true" power of the Force but shut themselves off from the Light.

Which, if the DESB is to be believed, is the part of the force which deals with Knowledge, Peace, Order, and Logic.

In other words, Sith by nature devote themselves to the Stupid Evil Side of the Force.

It explains a great deal.

Really, it's why Revan, Marr, Vader, Malgus, and so on are the best Sith. They are USING the Dark Side but not BECOMING it.

Palpatine and Viviate are the problem with the latter as they set themselves on a road to becoming. essentially, nothing more than an emotional storm of pure omnicidal evil.

 

Here's an essay of mine on the Sith, BTW.

http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-nature-of-sith-can-they-be-good.html

 

Well - Marka Ragnos himself was also a very Powerful Ancient Sith Lord in his own right ... and the fact his influence being to the point where he had this Powerful Sith Artifact plus the fact how he had two contenders; Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow competing against one another for his mantle of Sith Lord ... or Freedon Nadd whom took over Onderron ... and how the atmosphere of the planet was tainted with literally his essence ... and later when he taught Exar Kunn Dark Side Powers and Knowledge ...

As with Palpatine ... but then again wouldn't you say Palpatine was already if not the only one person in the SW universe to be 'beyond help and being redeemed' as he himself was always absolutely remorseless, megalomaniacal, violent and utterly absolute hatred ... to the point where upon the first time he murdered in real cold blood in the EU was when he murdered the House of Palpatine and remarked to Darth Plagueis 'MAGISTER ... FOR A MOMENT ... I WAS BUT A STORM!' ... and Darth Plagueis coolly gave his POV in a matter of fact about it ... and hence Palpatine would continue to manipulate and kill via direct, indirect means and 'dirty work' ...

Nice Essay btw - interesting how the Sith want to see themselves as liberators but in the perspectives of many - save for those denizens of Korriban, perhaps also Malachor IV, some moons of Yavin and Dromund Kaas to name a few - pretty much all they do is just oppress and enslave the Galaxy; I mean I'm sure you know how Mace Windu remarked boldly just when Anakin started his intervention in the duel between Mace Windu and Palpatine how 'the oppression of the Sith will never return! You are under arrest ... my Lord...' how Mace Windu clearly was determined to draw the line here and remark also how Sith no matter how they see themselves are always going to be tyrants and oppressive rather than liberators ...

 

Isn't it odd though of these Sith Orders - one way or another - they still didn't really have as much 'loyalty' in a sense - given whilst no doubt more organized and such compared to the thugs with a mob-mentality on Korriban - so you know Ancient Massassi and the Dark Jedi interbreeding where they had the 'Beast-eats-Beast' world ... yet with Darth Bane still the Apprentice must KILL THE SITH MASTER ...and with Krayt's One Sith - well the fact he later got betrayed at times and how Ancient Sith Lords on Korriban accused him of being a traitor and a heresy to traditional Sith teachings ... and Vitiate whom
And yet none of these Sith Orders - odd how they couldn't really have more 'loyalty' and discard the 'treachery is way of the Sith' ideals eh? I mean surely you still want a number of loyal followers right? Yet the fact Sith are selfish and angry and hence they cannot achieve immortality the way the Jedi can; or with Vitiate - whilst he was quite successful he was still very megalomaniacal and he desired immortality and 'peace' but in a twisted way and the fact how he like many Sith were still struck with 'FEAR' as an overwhelming emotion that leads to self-destruction ... odd isn't it yet we haven't had any Sith whom have managed to try to resolve or remedy this to a degree given if it isn't selfishness, if it isn't treachery (given Vitiate was also betrayed by his apprentice), anger or the fact Sith are never going to be 100% friendly with one another no matter how 'civilized' they are (so you know Darth Bane's Rule of Two where Darth Plagueis in the novel claimed made the Sith 'architects, and not ANIMALS' to Palpatine ...) they will betray and kill one another and then there's in the end the FEAR ... the FEAR of Death and losing Power and yet ironically Sith would just embark on an extension of pain and self-destruction ... I mean looking at some Sith whom did extremes - like Darth Sion whom had to endure excruciating amounts of tolerance for pain to keep him alive, Darth Anddedu whom had knowledge of Essence Transfer, Darth Maul spending a decade feeding off his despair, pain and anger ... succumbing to madness... and the fact Sith just use Fear but never could truly master it ... and the Fear of Death ... yet enduring horrific painful procedures just to achieve it ... given Palpatine too in the EU claiming whilst Essence Transfer is a small price to pay for immortality but the journey and process of it is painful and makes one feel like dying ...

 

Sith want immortality but they want it on their terms.

A Jedi can achieve it by giving themselves to the Force and becoming one with it.

A Sith, by contrast, can't do that.

A Jedi can become an angelic presence, almost, in the Force.

A Sith, by contrast, becomes nothing more than a ghost.

 

Both well said! Well - that reminds me Sinrebirth where your comment reminds me of Darth Plagueis in the EU, novel and ROTS and his tale by Palpatine whom was a very Powerful Sith Lord and Sith Scholar - and with Midichlorian Manipulation - yet how Palpatine remarked ironic Darth Plagueis did lose his power and how he was only afraid of losing his own powers - particularly the knowledge of Midichlorian Manipulation ... ironic isn't it? And given the fact how Darth Plagueis would 'become so Powerful ... the only thing he was afraid was ... losing his own Power which he did in the end ...'

And Charlemagne19 where indeed given Qui-Gon Jinn explained Sith are always by default selfish and angry and violent hence they cannot achieve immortality or True Immortality - and are bound as disembodied spirits with nothing but horror and agony and such ... or the fact they are forevermore forced to rely on painful means of surviving ... particularly Essence Transfer ... yet Darth Plagueis wasn't interested in this ...

You know - that does remind me though - speaking of Sith and such - Count Dooku doesn't seem to embody the traits of a Sith or most characteristics - and even Fear; well - he was concerned at times but he kept his cool usually and it was only in the ROTS novel plus the film with his defeat at Anakin's hands and with Palpatine's taunting to 'DO IT!' and Count Dooku finally realized he was but a pawn and nothing more and he was but a cog in the machine ... and realizing how Sith betray one another ... but what would you say with Count Dooku - could he have ran the Sith differently or even had his own faction and doctrine of Sith? Given he did at times still refer to Jedi ideals like referencing Sifo Dyas or where he still did have hints of sentiment at the Jedi Order - particularly with Master Yoda in the Lost Missions ... and where Count Dooku himself afterall as was a Jedi Master for some time ... and the fact Count Dooku did think the Republic was corrupt and needed a 'New Order...' and how he tried to compel Obi-Wan Kenobi to work for him to rule the Galaxy and 'together they would destroy the Sith!'

 

I like Mathew Stover's take on Dooku, except for making him a sociopath racist.

Dooku envisioned a Dark Side Jedi Order after the Empire took over.

One which was arrogant, ruthless, and controlling but still loyal to one another.

I think as a Sith he's fallen but he's not fallen NEARLY as far as many Sith.

But, honestly, I'm not sure I bought Dooku was all that loyal to Sidious. I think he was just shocked he was expendable to Sidious rather than genuinely loyal to him.

 

Hello again! YES - well in the EU Count Dooku was a 'speciest' - where he believed humans were the dominant species to rule the Galaxy and he had a negative view on non-humans and how he secretly despised them and how he probably in particular didn't have much of an opinion on a number of the Separatist cronies ... not least of which Nute Gunray who's always moaning and nagging about how much 'credits' things cost him ...

Well - I can tell you - if you read the ROTS novel and have a look at AOTC; Count Dooku clearly mentioned to Obi-Wan Kenobi how 'he must join and work with him to destroy the Sith...' and the fact how Count Dooku in the EU; he did consider at one point to hunt down the Sith and such but he felt in the end the Republic was corrupt and inevitably going to end up with change ... and the fact how Palpatine at times did have 'doubts' on Count Dooku's loyalty; he did order Count Dooku to kill Asajj Ventress ...

Actually I've also posted a new post just then this evening about what would have happened if Count Dooku had claimed 'Palpatine and Sidious are the same!' on the Invisible Hand just before he died ...

Well - unlike Palpatine - Count Dooku was taken in at a young age to the Jedi Order; although he did still have a degree of pride and still felt he was above others; Palpatine whilst also being born into a wealthy aristocratic family - Palpatine however just didn't give a Force about anyone and the fact he already killed innocents before he even met Darth Plagueis; but it was only after he was 'unleashed' in anger and he murdered the House of Palpatine in absolute cold blood did he finally 'conjure up a storm...' inside of him ... and the fact well Palpatine 'embraced the Dark Side from the start' somewhat ... and Count Dooku however - well he didn't kill his parents in cold blood ... and the fact Palpatine on the other hand even remarked how had he been taken in by the Jedi Order ... he may have had a different tale to say (I also posted a thread about what if Palpatine had become 'Jedi Master Palpatine' instead of a Sith? Or odds are he'd probably betray the Jedi Order in the end ...)

And Count Dooku - as we know - he seems at times to be still holding to a degree of sentiment about his past ties to the Jedi Order ... and he was somewhat visibly uneasy when he disarmed and defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi ... plus - as we know Count Dooku usually keeps a calm cool aura - even though he may be arrogant ...

Plus as we know Palpatine didn't give a Force about anyone ... just himself ... and he only cared if his pawns like Count Dooku and later Anakin were worth for the time being useful ...

 

Charlemagne we have a similar view of the Jedi and Sith, or at least the dark and light side. This is the artwork that made me interested in exploring the EU:



It's still the most definitive star wars artwork to me.

 

The irony of that artwork, of course, is that it is not depicting the Dark versus the Light but the Dark versus the Dark. Darth Nihilus is fallen but it is the less insidious form of evil than Atris having missed that corrupted seized control over her heart every bit as deeply as Nihilus.

Well, maybe not AS deeply but pretty firmly.

Atris is a WHITE Jedi Master not a BROWN Jedi Master.

Which, to me, is a delightful bit of subterfuge.

As she is a Jedi Master who has removed from herself every bit of color and vibrancy from her life. Which, given the Asian roots of the Jedi, means she's also a figure of Death.

 

In any case, my view of the strongest Sith Empire is probably the Dark Council ruled Sith Empire under Darth Viviate. I'm inclined to think that Viviate was a hands-off ruler for the most part because he was more interested in probing the depths of the Dark Side than actually dealing with people. Yes, the Sith were constantly scheming against one another in the Sith Empire but they also were able to work with each other to a reasonable degree. It was a survival of the fittest-style group but they seemed also desirous of teaching the next generation of Sith as well as forming bonds like friendship, family, and alliances.

While the infighting of the Sith is seemingly a big weakness, it does avoid the problem of the Jedi Knighthood's staticism. Say what you will about the Sith but they're always moving forward and seeking change despite their desire to conquer/enslave others. The Sith also have ridiculously larger variety in the types of Force-powers they wield, possessing something closer to magic than the Jedi who tend to have only a static as well as limited force power array.

Revan's Sith Brotherhood didn't last very long but it seemed also to be very powerful and on the verge of expansion too.

 

I saw Count Dooku as Revan, and Revan as what Dooku could've been if he didn't trust Palpatine so much. He didn't care about the Sith and intended to use them for his ultimate plan. He was deceived into thinking Palpatine was with him all along.

In my opinion though, the best Sith would be an individualist. One who doesn't require a Sith-labelled Order or a Sith-labelled Empire but achieves power through his own means and has his own goals. It's essentially the principle of the Sith Code to do so, to achieve freedom, though often enough Sith become slaves to their own organisations.

 

Sounds abit like Darth Nihilus in particular - and what's ironic was that for a Sith Lord he didn't even give a Force about the Sith - he never cared about the Sith or anyone at all; he had practically no allegiances nor did he exactly seem to have any Sith Apprentices or followers; the rather fragile alliance he had with Darth Sion and Treiya serves to that testatment and how he only cared about sustaining his hunger and gradually gaining more Power through it and the fact he was a walking Wound in the Force and his very presence could drain the life of many away ...

Yes PRECISELY! With the fact how Sith are always moving forward - thats credit and testament indeed to the fact they can adapt and change; given how Mace Windu or was it Ki-Adi-Mundi remarking they thought the Sith were but destroyed 2000 years ago then ... and that Mace Windu was 'adamant' if a Sith dared to return and resurrect - it would not go undetected by the Jedi and high be low and ho-ho-ho ... look at the Clone Wars to Order/Protocol 66 ... and abit oblivious and dogmatic to this belief eh? Given also how Darth Tenebrous in the Darth Plagueis novel remarked to Darth Plagueis how the Sith once wore armor but now the Sith wear cloaks and are a 'Phantom Menace' and that invisibility made them all the more Powerful and such as a new generation of Sith ... and later Darth Plagueis claiming to Palpatine 'we ARE ARCHITECTS OF THE FUTURE ... SIDIOUS! NOT BUTCHERS!' seems as if even Darth Plagueis really didn't have a high opinion of mob-mentality minded Massassi and thugs and delusional Dark Jedi as he saw them from Korriban ... and the fact Darth Plagueis wasn't even appealed by the Force Essence Transfer Technique ...

 

Of course, Force Essence Transfer doesn't appear to be all that helpful.

Darth Bane tried to use it but failed.

Darth Andeddu knew about it but ended up dead anyway.

Palpatine was able to use it on his clones but each of them was crazier than the last--though that might be because of Carnor Jax poisoning him.

I think if it exists in the NuEU, it has to have some drawback we're missing.