PT Who are the Separatists?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GregMcP, Sep 6, 2016.

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  1. GregMcP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2015
    star 4
    From what I've read, they originate from a collection of self-serving leaders of a wide collection of planets and motivations. Traders, bankers, technologists... all wanting to do their no-entirely-honorable things without Republican laws and restrictions and taxes.

    Ignoring the Sideous-Dooku deception going on underneath, what's the typical Separatist thinking of it all?
    Is it a Libertarian movement? Get Big Government out of my life.
    Is it a matter of seeing the Republic ignoring their needs, so taking matters into their own hands?
    Or is it just being the helpless subjects of corrupt leaders and not having any say in it at all?

    I'm pondering this stuff for a story in my head that has a Separatist thinking back to the old days of the War.
    Last edited by GregMcP, Sep 6, 2016
  2. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 4
    Great topic.

    Well from what we are told in AOTC, the Separatists movement started out as a legitimate movement. At the beginning of AOTC, all those mega-corps aren't actually part of the Separatists. What we see later on in AOTC is the formation of the Separatists army using those mega-corps.

    The actual Separatist movement was a movement by those planets that had become disenfranchised with the Republic and its inability to represent the people. A key example of this is inability is shown in TPM. This movement is led by a firebrand "political idealist" in Count Dooku.

    So at its core, the Separatists were made up of people who had grown tired of the Republics failures, stagnation, and lack of movement in the Senate.

    So where does the Trade Federation, Banking Clan etc etc come in?

    Well again in AOTC we find out that the Military Creation Act is being debated. Those in favor of the MCA are so because of the increasing upheaval around the Republic, due to the Separatist Movement, which is spreading the Jedi too thin.

    Those that are against the MCA, Padme, are so because they fear it will push the Separatists to seek out the help of those mega-corps for military aid. Why? Because the Separatists fear that if the Republic created a military, than they would use that military to force the Separatists back into the Republic at gunpoint. So they would need their own military to counter. In return, the mega-corps would be rewarded with lower franchise taxes on their franchise licenses, less restrictions and less regulation.

    So again, at its core, the Separatists seemed to be well intentioned and idealistic people or beings that wanted a better life. However it seems that when we get into ROTS, their movement has been hijacked by those mega-corps that they turned too for help. As we see in ROTS, those mega-corps are referred to as the leaders of the Separatists.
  3. GregMcP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2015
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    I like that. Good motivation for a young idealist seeing his dreams first hijacked, and then entirely crushed by military defeat. And it turns out they were right all along as he watches the Republic transform into an oppressive police state.

    Would a man on the street know about Dooku playing them for chumps? Would he still be respected and honoured for fighting the good fight?
    Last edited by GregMcP, Sep 7, 2016
  4. Sharkfighter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2016
    It is sad to see them killed off.
  5. {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 21, 2015
    star 5
    @Sepra


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  6. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Sad to see them locked up for most of TCW.
  7. Sharkfighter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2016
    R O G E R ED
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  8. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    @GregMcP @mikeximus In TCW, we see the Separatist Senate. They're definitely offically the legislative branch of the Separatists, but I'm not sure if their leglislation has any actual power.
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  9. missile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2016
    star 1
    the bad guys
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  10. GregMcP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2015
    star 4

    Isn't it a major subtext of the story that they are considered the Bad Guys by Republic citizens, but perhaps the Republic is the actual baddie... and most people on both sides are just pawns political manipulation anyway. It's an artificially created conflict with people suckered into thinking there is any Right or Wrong at all.
    Its all folly in the end.

    The gradual introduction of droids into the governments of systems must have been strange and worrying for citizens of the Separatists. That must have been a clear sign that they were losing control.
  11. missile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2016
    star 1
    ok,then sidious ,a handful of the republic, and most of the separatist are bad guys. The prequels didn't really do a good job of setting up separatist as anything more than bad guys. hell how many good separatist are there, that one ladie and her son(i think) that showed up in that one episode in the clone wars that got almost immediately killed in her first episode. You can't even argue that are people at all fighting on the separatist side you only ever see droids and those umbrian guys.

    I tell you what it would had been alot more impactfull if the republic voted on exterminating the jedi to show how ignorant and corrupt the republic had gotten. Instead it seems like the republic is forced into it by sidious and its clone army,they even gave the clones a moral high ground by adding chips into canon basically giving them no choice in the matter. You don't see alot of morally ambiguous individuals as you see morally ambiguous sides. Most of the time you have good guys just being tricked into things(the republic), and bad guys just doing their thing(the separatist).

    ........I don't know where I'm going with this, But what came across in the prequels was that the separatist were corrupt bankers and businessmen from the republic revolting for not having enough power and sending their robots because they are lazy and stuff and don't wanna send their manpower out, and the republic and jedi are a bunch people who get tricked a lot.
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  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    All the Umbarans wanted was to leave the Republic. The Republic and Jedi violated their right to self-sovereignty and invaded their planet. I suspect the Umbara episodes were written with Vietnam in mind.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Sep 7, 2016
  13. missile Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2016
    star 1
    We can only assume though since once again It tries to make the clones sympathetic by giving them an evil jedi commander that's already turned(how anakin or any other jedi through out the war didn't notice is a mystery). Maybe if we had umbrain civilians involved and a little bit more nastier clones, it could had pulled that Vietnam tone off alot better.
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  14. Delta Scepter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2014
    star 1
    Pawns, my dear boy. Unwitting pawns, I'm afraid.
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  15. MarcJordan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2014
    star 4
    The Republic wasn't what it once was. Separation was inevitable. Palpatine orchestrating with the Trade Federation as the first instrument.

    MJ
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  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think so, the seps are painted as way more of the bad guys than the republic.
    The seps leaders, the people we see with Dooku, they openly talk about murdering Padme and none of them object to this. They have also been building up a big army for some time and now they plan to use it against a weak republic. Remember, the army bill has not passed yet so the republic has no army.
    They will either use the threat of this army or just use the army, defeat or kill the Jedi and enforce their demands at gunpoint.

    All most of the seps here are painted as evil capitalists, The Banking Clan, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union.

    In short, the film doesn't really paint them as overall good people that were duped by Dooku.
    Dooku played them for fools yes but they were bad guys who were willing and able to bad things to serve their own greed or lust for power.

    The seps, to me, fall a bit short and could have been developed better.

    Take the events of TPM and ask yourself, which planet would be the most angry and feel let down by the senate/republic?
    Naboo.

    First the TF blockaded their planet over a tax dispute with the senate. And said senate did nothing.
    Then the TF attacked and invaded Naboo, killing who knows how many and put people into camps and starved them. The queen of Naboo went to Coruscant, at great personal risk, to plead with the senate. And she got screamed down and basically called a liar and the senate still did nothing.
    So the Naboo people had to take matters into their own hands and they fought off the TF and Nute was arrested. And yet he walked free. Despite all the deaths and suffering he caused, he got off.
    The people of Naboo would have every reason to feel let down by the senate and not have much if any faith in the republic.
    So Naboo would probably be the first in line in wanting to leave.
    And this would have made for an interesting conflict, Padme is on the side that wants to leave and Anakin and Obi-Wan are not.

    And other smaller worlds like Naboo, who saw what happed to Naboo and how the TF abused their power and acted like thugs and bullies and got away with it. They could also think that the senate is run by the corporations and big business and smaller worlds like them are not protected by the senate any more.

    Another problem to me is that the seps can apparently call on the TF for help.
    So are the TF a part of the seps?
    If not, how can they expect to give military aid to the seps in a fight with the republic and still remain a part of that republic? They are supporting an enemy of the republic.
    But a bigger problem is that if we assume that the seps are fed up with the corruption and feel that the senate is run by the big companies. Why would they turn to the TF? The TF are the source of much of the corruption IN the senate and why would a government run the TF be any less corrupt than the senate?

    And if these seps are idealists, again why would they turn to the TF?
    The galaxy knows what the TF did with Naboo, how they abused their power and attacked a defenseless world and killed who knows how many. Why would "idealistic" worlds want to work with such killers?

    In closing, I think it might have made better sense that the seps are the ones with the clone army and the TF and other big companies are still with the republic. They pretty much control the senate and are taking advantage of the system. So the republic is well armed.
    So the seps have to turn to cloners to get an army for themselves.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  17. True Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2015
    star 4
    The interesting thing about the Separatists is that they're really a hodge-podge of different groups with different goals. The moderate ones (like Padme's friend in TCW) simply want a new and legitimate separate state, while the more radical members are bent on completely destroying and replacing the Republic. And then you have the corporations who, when the chips are down, back the CIS, but really try to play both sides because they're in it for the money.
    Last edited by True Sith, Sep 8, 2016
  18. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 4
    ...

    While I can't disagree with you that the main theme of the Separatists in the Prequels is that they are greedy corporations looking for a way to become richer, I do disagree that the movies did a poor job in setting them up as anything other than just bad guys.

    There is enough information provided in the movies for us to be able to piece together what is going on with the separatists if one chooses to pay attention to some of the more minute details and be constructive.

    For example, what I alluded too in my earlier post where we know that the separatist movement is not just a bunch of greedy corporate executives. AOTC shows us that those greedy execs didn't get involved until after the movement had already started and the Separatists declared their intention to leave. The Separatists turned to the greedy execs as a means to obtain an army to protect themselves, again established in AOTC. So with paying attention to the opening crawl, the state of affairs in the galaxy, and some dialogue we can construct a fairly informative ideal of what was going on with the separatists as a political movement. Also, we have the opening crawl of ROTS which states that there are heroes on both sides of the conflict. An important piece of exposition that tells us that there is something more to the separatists than just evil bankers and corporate executives. I don't think Lucas was playing at a POV issue where even bad guys have "heroes". I think it was more to the point that "hero's" are good people, that at the core, the Separatists were good people. That those greedy bankers and corporations do what they have often done through our own history. Hijack a good cause and bend it to their own desires.

    The Separatists were developed as far as they need be, their history was not important to the overall story. Anyone wishing that they be "developed" further are only doing so out of personal desire, not because the prequels needed them to be developed any further than they needed to be. What Lucas gave us, was enough clues to tell us a little bit about them, leaving us to use a little grey matter to follow the information to some kind of conclusion of our own. So to me, the Separatists weren't underdevelopment, because their further development wasn't meaningful to the overall story of the Prequels.

    So why did the Separatists turn to the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techo-Union etc etc? Because War makes For Strange Bed Fellows, because The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend. The Separatists turning to the corrupt institutions of the mega-corps may seem wrong, but, it's threads and tones are taken from our own world history.

    For example, once upon a time the 13 American Colonies fought in a war called the French and Indian War. In that war, which took place from 1754 to 1763, the American Colonies fighting for Imperialistic Britain went to war against Imperialistic French forces.

    However, less than 30 years later something strange happened. Those same 13 American Colonies found themselves in a war of revolution against Imperialistic Britain, and did something some people here would find unthinkable (or might even blame Lucas for as bad writing)... The American Colonies turned to Imperialistic France for help and aid. The same France that they had just fought a war against less than 30 years earlier, a particularly bloody war that saw many nasty massacres from both sides.So why would the American Colonies turn to one imperialistic nation in order to fight another imperialistic nation? Why would they turn to another country that they had just fought a war against and many in the American Colonies hated? Because they had no choice! They knew that without help from France, their Revolution, their Declaration of Independence would be short lived.

    There are other examples in history as well, during the American Civil War, the Confederate States of America continually asked Britain for help. Even though less than a hundred years earlier, many of those same Confederates families fought and died fighting the British during the war of 1812 and the American Revolution. So why did the Confederates turn to what was their enemy twice over in less than a hundred years? Because they had no choice! However, of note, with much deliberation and debate, the British stayed neutral during the American Civil War.

    The situation in the Prequels with the Separatists and the Mega Corps is not much different from the examples I gave above. The Separatists had no choice but to turn to what hey knew were greeedy mega-corps because they knew the Republic was much stronger and was on the cusp of creating an army that would force the Separatists back into the Republic at gun point!


    Underdeveloped? No... To me, they were developed as far as need be. The rest was left to us because that story wasn't important to the story Lucas wanted to tell. However, he left us with enough to piece together something ourselves.
    Last edited by mikeximus, Sep 9, 2016
  19. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Reverse Clone Wars? That would have been interesting.

    How about instead of a Separatist movement, the story is that Dooku, the Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, etc. are invading the Republic because Palpatine is cracking down on greedy corporations in response to the events of TPM? Maybe instead of Gunray having been aquited, Dooku broke him out of prison.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Sep 9, 2016
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    That is true, but their motivation is also because their businesses will be destroyed by the Senate which is trying to overstep its bounds. They are greedy, but they also see that the Senate is corrupt in a different light.

    But they have faith in Palpatine who is now the Chancellor and Padme who goes on to become a senator. Hence why the Naboo system is still part of the Senate ten years later. In the deleted sequence where Padme meets with Dooku, in the full version, Dooku more or less intimates that the Senate is the problem and that her voice would be welcomed in their ranks.

    The Federation was part of the Republic, but also part of the Confederacy. Nute and his followers were considered rogue agents acting on their own. Likewise with the Banking Clan.

    Because the Separatist Council is not the same as the movement itself. The Council is made up of individuals who have the resources to pull off a secessionist movement, as noted by mikeximus. History shows that certain alliances can form between completely opposite sides. The Federation was never convicted in the Naboo incident and there was a belief that the evidence against them was made up to cover the truth, that the Senate wanted to discredit and destroy the Federation, in order to take control of it. Many in the Senate doubted Padme's claims and were willing to support a committee to investigate these alleged crimes. As the war went on, those who saw the truth began to defect to the Republic.
  21. True Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2015
    star 4
    Just one small correction: the Federation wasn't actually part of the Republic, they just had a seat in the Senate because of their massive influence on the galactic economy.
  22. Darth Basin Jedi Master

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    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    The TF was in the Republic which is why they had a Senator named Lott Dodd. When the Clone Wars broke out The TF, The Banking Clan, The Techno Union (everybody rave!), and the other "greedy corporations" said they were neutral, like the Bank Clan or where "hijacked" by Nute Gunray who was said to be " running a splinter group " pretending to be the entire TF.

    All this was mentioned on TCW.

    So while the "Greedy Corporations" thought they were playing both the CIS and GR as fools they're infact being ALL PLAYED BY PALPATINE!

    That is the beauty of GL.
    Last edited by Darth Basin, Sep 9, 2016
  23. True Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2015
    star 4
    Well it depends on how you define "in the Republic". Really they were just a completely neutral trade conglomerate whose main client was obviously the Republic before the war, and they had so much power over the galactic economy they got a Senate seat. But it's a stretch to say they were a member of the Republic, in the traditional sense, when they operated pretty independently with almost no oversight, and their only ties to the Republic were business deals really.
    Last edited by True Sith, Sep 9, 2016
  24. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    Lucas knows his history , and he knows how large societies rise and fall . And these 'narratives' continue today .
    We essentially see things from the Republic's / Jedi's p.o.v. , and just like in our world when our governments choose to go to war we believe in the side we're on , and the Jedi's actions make sense given the circumstances , but when you think about it later objectively - there are big questions to be asked :

    like - if I was a Separatist I'd feel threatened by the fact that the Republic have the Jedi on their side , and why are the Jedi on the Republic's side ? that's political .

    Who started the war ? well - 2 Jedi's were caught spying and killing the workers on Geonosis , that's provocation , and then more Jedi arrive and invade the planet and start the war .

    I won't mention specifics but there have certainly been wars where it seemed like the reasons were valid at the start and then later we were all saying " hang on , why exactly did we go to war ? Was it really justified ? "
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  25. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 4


    I disagree. The Trade Federation is not just a powerful "neutral" entity that is not a member of the Republic. In TPM, Lott Dod is referred to as the "Senator from the Trade Federation" by Chancellor Valorum. We see that Trade Federation is not just a bystander in the Senate. They take part in the political process, even objecting to the statements of a Senator of a sovereign system.

    Furthermore, it is the Trade Federation that recommends a commission be sent to Naboo to investigate the allegations made against it, and it is the Senators from Malastare that second the Trade Federations motion for a commission. This shows again that the Trade Federation is part of the Republic and it's political process. They have a seat on the Senate and are allowed to have a say in the political process.
    Last edited by mikeximus, Sep 10, 2016
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