PT Who are the Separatists?

Sure, but I wonder how much of that power was due to the corruption of the Senate and them conceding to the reality that without the Federation's approval, any meaningful trade or economic progress would've been very difficult. The TF basically bought there way in so to speak.

What's problematic for them being a full regular member of the Republic in the traditional sense is that in the Clone Wars, they officially state they're neutral. There's no real backlash that they were leaving the Republic per se, as there would've been had they been a full-fledged regular member before, but the concern had more to do with them secretly favoring the CIS and arming both sides. So they're not really a Republic organization, specifically, but more like a voice they needed to have in the Senate since the economy largely hinged on them. So they were a member in that sense I guess.

 

The TF is supposed to be a space East Indie Trading Company. Mega corporations like that are supposed to be qusigoverments in their own right. Vimes, the TF had alot to be made about at the Republic, such as the passing and upholding of trade taxes that hurts their profits and lowers their control over trade, besides their leader being tried several times which hurt their organization's image. That is despite all the losses they incurred during the events of TPM. TPM sets up that the TF and other mega corporations wanted free trade with no government envolvments hurting trade, as anytime a government gets involved with trade it always hurts somebody, can't be avoided. Again TPM showed the Republic was starting to restrict and control trade through taxes, a long used tool in real life to control trade which usually hurts the end consumer the most. The deleted scene in ANH with Luke and Biggs explains things get worse with the Empire nationalizing (taking over) trade, sweeping away free enterprise, the very thing the PT mega corporations feared would happen.

I always throught the neutral mega corps in TCW was really bad retconning of the PT. The films showed they were at full war with the Republic, there is no longer any neutrality as it would hurt the Sith's plans as they would not want peace talks to start. They want both sides too busy fighting each other to see what is really happening. That is my main gripe with the TCW is all the lazy and bad retconning in the series that doesn't mesh with the PT films. Stuff like this makes it difficult to accept TCW is the same continuity as the films with the show going so far off in its own direction away from from what the films presents.

 

From my perspective Lucas constructed The Clone Wars with intentional shades of grey in mind. The Republic isn't all good, and the Separatist's aren't all bad, it is all about perspective (Though personally I would side With the Republic and their Jedi Protectors, but that is besides the point.)

One thing I really, really like Lucas did in the Clone Wars cartoon was make the Corporations neutral. Admittedly this does not fit in comfy cozy with past continuity on the matter, but it is something I actually feel would be a reasonable stance for any business. They are less cartoonishly evil for no reason, and more well thought out business beings. Though sadly they are still somewhat played up antagonistically it is nothing I can not simply ignore as I do in my beloved prequels.

This permits a more close nit focus on the issues at hand. Its not just "Oh 'greedy corrupt' corporations are the bad guys again" but we get to look at the average citizens view. In AOTC we see in the opening crawl "Several Thousand Solar SYTEMS have declared their intention to leave the republic." So right off the bat its not the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Corporate Alliance, etc, that Is put into the for-front, but the PEOPLE, the people who's elected officials have declared intent to leave what they view to be a corrupt body. Truly this may take place in many different ways, some may have left without the will of the people (Such as Onderon for instance) but the implication remains that this is a movement with massive support. Many people loose focus of this later in the movie as Dooku enters into negotiations with the council, but it is a vital idea that must not be forgotten.

The notion of a legitimate government for the Separatists returns in TCW, and for the first time we get to see how the Congress of the Confederacy actually functions. "Unlike the Republic Corporations do not rule us!" though indeed this introduces a shadow element in the Separatist council that intrigues me. We know the Congress does have SOME power as they held the authority to vote in favor of peace talks with the Republic (Though we all knew Dooku would never let that happen.) To me the real question is, what powers do the Separatist Council poses? It seems by the end of the war they were a major figure head for their government as their deaths signaled the end of the war, but what could they actually do?

It is a potent question as the members of said council are all ambassadors of major Conglomerates, most are probably disavowed as extremists by their larger organization (As Lot Dod claimed Gunray was in TCW) or perhaps they are simply appointed to voice the concerns of the businesses which are effectively funding both sides of the war effort. It is possible we shall never get a definitive conclusion, yet I can't imagine the systems which left the Republic for its corruption would stand by while the corporations they sought to escape made any serious policy decisions. As others have mentioned the Confederacy couldn't outright ignore the major businesses in the galaxy, else they would be broke and have not a leg to stand on against the Republic. So seeing them as the lesser evils (Or tools in Dooku's case) They struck a deal to fund their armies so as to protect themselves from what they saw as the larger threat.

Though the actual functioning of the Confederacy Government is left to speculation at this point, what it exactly is could not be more clear to me. It is a collection of disgruntled systems that feel the Republic is no longer able to function properly. (Though I do feel hat the tensions were goaded by Dooku and Palpatine and that it is likely it would never have reached that point without their intervention) They separated, made a deal with the big businesses to receive funding, and built an army to protect themselves. There were many different perspectives, even in their own Congress it is seen, though it was shown for all of a couple minutes one would have to be remiss to not notice the great divide in the chamber. Though it seems to me the average separatist citizen could be encompassed in Mina Bontari, moderate and well intentioned, but still a supporter of the movement as a whole. "He is just the leader of the Senate, not the master of the entire universe." As she described Dooku, people on both sides have no idea how horrendous their leaders truly are.

 

Corporations were opportunists in the War, yes?
Kaminoans and Geonosians both sucking their respective governments dry for millions of Clones and Droids. Both of substandard quality so that there is plenty of destruction requiring further purchases.

Poverty and desperation are fine aids in encouraging people to accept a dictatorship.

 

The clones in the films at least did not appear to be substandard. They did do their job well as Jango promised which was order 66.

In TPM, it was established that the TF outright ruled its trade territories, and it seems likely many of the systems leaving the Republic may have pushed into doing so by the TF and other mega corporations who controlled them. It was clear in AOTC that Dooku really wanted them to join, promising a quick and easy victory and easing their concerns of treason. That their combined armies would quickly overrun the Jedi and force the Republic to agree to their demands, likely the lifting of taxes and other trade restrictions and creating free trade, restoring profit margins and their power. Had they known about the clone army ahead of time, most of the mega corporations and guilds likely would never have joined the CIS as it would be a long and costly war. ROTS made it clear that it was just not some fringe of the TF, but the entire organization was at war with the Republic and that the mega corps made up the bulk of CIS leadership, a corporate government. The two biggest emenies to the Sith were the Jedi and the mega corporations, which is why they pitted the two against each other so they would be weakened and easy to whipe out. The Sith simply used the Jedi's dogma and corporation's greed against themselves. The CIS was started to attract the mega corporations so they could be used as an excuse for Palp's power grab, and too be destoryed once no longer useful.

In a early version of ANH, it was explained the emperor was placed into power by greedy guilds as a puppet leader (ala Hittler), but soon found out he had his own ideas and they were the ones being pulled around. Like with Maul suddenly being alive, TCW has alot of changes made to it that don't jive with the films.

 

GregMcP Since this hasn't been brought up yet, I'd like to add that (at least in the Legends continuity), the Separatist Movement was mostly non-Core or Inner Rim, or else mostly non-human whereas the Old Republic had apparently long been very Core-centric and humanocentric, and there was a rift in alien species and Mid and Outer Rim worlds in the Republic because of that. But I think we're led to believe that the CIS would never have become its own thing were it not for Count Dooku, who was, after all, known publicly to the galaxy as an ex-Jedi "political idealist" as Ki-Adi-Mundi called him. So the Clone Wars and the CIS were really just another of Palpatine's machinations. Maybe the Separatist Movement started without Dooku or Sidious' meddling (I don't know if there's a canon source for this anymore), but what actually drove thousands of systems to withdraw from the Republic was probably Dooku's "idealist" leadership, and it was all just a part of Palpatine's plan to destroy the Jedi and take over the Republic. Palpatine must have been very attuned to the political disaffection in the Senate, and he exploited that when he basically instigated the Separatist Movement and the Clone Wars. And of course, the CIS wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if it weren't for Corporate backers on the Separatist Council we see in the movies (who were also played for dupes themselves by Palpatine, along with Dooku). Like other posters mentioned, we don't really know at this point what role the Confederate Parliament played or how the CIS would have worked politically as a real alternative to the Republic, but it might not matter because it never had a chance.

TL;DR The CIS was mostly made up of disaffected non-Core and/or non-human systems that had been marginalized by the Republic status quo for a long time, and there were genuine reasons for them splitting from the Republic, but they were just being exploited by the Sith all along (to destroy the Jedi).

 

When I was wookieepediaing about, looking at important people, planets, races, it was pretty clear that there were not many humans in the mix.

 

It's a good question, GregMcP.

From my perspective, the people who should be the Separatists, aren't, and the Separatists should be the Republic loyalists.

It does get turned around by the end of ROTS, though.

Yeah, this is the Separatist Senate from TCW.



It works well to set up anti-alien sentiment later in the OT, with the "bad guys" from the Clone Wars being all aliens.

 

I think the Separatist movement is presented vaguely in the movies for the simple reason that they are the first "puppets" used by the great puppet master Sidious in his plan. Yes, the Republic was fading in that moment and it was inevitable but it was CIS that was 'managed' by Count Dooku who was Darth Sidious right hand. It was CIS that was traded by the TF, the Banking clan, etc.: groups that wanted to make profit of this big crisis. As you can see in Ep.3, when Vader wiped out the Separatist leaders, the leaders of the Trade Federation were the most active between them, i.e. they have higher positions there (after Dooku). Also, all of them already knew about Darth Sidious, so obviously in the end the idealist movement was overwhelmed by greed, power and intrigues. But in the beginning obviously it wasn't that way. Padme herself, being part of the committee of the loyalists thought that the separatist are just systems (i.e. their populations) that were not satisfied of the direction taken by the Republic; they wanted change, more autonomy, etc, etc. So, she understands their motives, she just think that it better fix the Republic and not destroy it. There is a deleted scene in AOTC where Count Dooku said to Padme: 'The Republic cannot be fixed, milady". I think this sentence show in few words the Separatist's ideology: there is nothing that we can do to fix the Galactic Republic problems. We should go out. Pretty the same situation as is now in the European Union. As you can see, even in the EU the separatists are not the ones who suffer more of the internal problems of the Union and yes, these problems are huge (as I live there I see it every day). And vice versa, the biggest loyalists are paradoxically the countries with biggest problems: economical and political ones and these problems emerged also because they became members. So being loyalist/separatist is more ideological problem ad I think in the galaxy far away was the same in the beginning. Well, after 3 years of civil war may things changed.

 

Yep, I think George Lucas was perhaps using the events of the Prequel Trilogy to warn of/showcase the events that are going on in our own world and society... with artificial conflicts being staged by global powers inorder to destabilize regions and make any "take overs" or changes of regime (often to a US instated puppet leader, such as the "senate" after Palpatine's take over) even seem welcomed by the general public after being manipulated through fear and propaganda.

 

Other than Dooku, Grevious, Ventress and Nute Gunray I can't name many Separatist members. They didn't really flesh out the other members much.

 

They were neutral in the sense that they were allowed to conduct non-war-related commerce with planets on both sides, due to a law passed many years ago by the Senate giving them the right to do so. They were still expected to be politically and militarily loyal to the Republic and as such were legally barred from providing war materiel to the Separatists (of course they still did it anyway, claiming plausible deniability).

I expect the Senate would have been reluctant to repeal such a commercial neutrality law for fear that the commerce guilds proper would simply decide to cut their losses, pack up, and join their so-called splinter groups in fully committing to the Separatist's war cause.

It's essentially a delicate game of pretense being played between the commerce guilds and the rest of the Senate. Everyone knows the commerce guilds aren't entirely on the level, but no one wants to do anything to upset the status quo too much--the commerce guilds because they want to maintain access to Republic markets, the Senate because they don't want the commerce guilds to leave completely and crash the economy.

As long as the commerce guilds keep their treasonous activity to a low enough level that everyone on both sides can pretend it isn't happening, the Senate is willing to reluctantly let sleeping dogs lie. But if the commerce guilds start doing things like conspiring with Separatist leaders to directly fund major munitions factories, as eventually happens in TCW, then that's something the Senate just can't ignore. It's too much of a military boon to their enemies. The economic costs of confronting the commerce guilds no longer outweigh the military and strategic costs of not doing so.

 

Possibly. That was a great story line in TCW. It even birth a character that went on to show up in Rebels and one of the Disney movies.

 

Saw Gerrera was in the Onderon episodes, not the Umbara episodes.

 

A conglomeration of megacorps, independent minded worlds and dissidents, anti-human alien pushers, and a small amount of idealistic people who were actually angry with the Republics problems and who genuinely believed a more decentralized galaxy was for the better.

 

I am not sure that is entirely true.

In the Umbara arc of the TCW, it is stated that The Separatists have put a strangle hold on the outlying trade routes in the expansionist zones. Umbara was in control of one of those routes, and it had aligned itself with the Separatists. The Seps had set-up a blockade of the Planet in order to defend it, and the hold it had on the trade route, which in a war trade routes or basically supply lines are a necessary component of war.

The Republic and Jedi weren't just arbitrarily invading a peaceful planet, that only wished to peacefully leave the Republic. Umbara had sided with the Separatists, in which they provided aid and open Supply Lines which is a means for the Seps to fight the Republic. Umbara was a strategic target for both sides.

Umbara made it's bed and had to sleep in it.

 

I always thought that the Separatists were a mix of people who legitimately thought the Republic couldn't or wasn't going to be fixed, and a bunch of greedy corporations in it for the money. But after reading this thread, I have been headcanoning, and come up with the following narrative:

• Around the time of TPM, the Republic is having a lot of trouble keeping law and order and everybody happy, and lots of people are grumbling, but nothing terribly outrageous has happened.
• You know Naboo? THAT was the outrageous thing. It was even more outrageous because Queen Amidala got shut down by the Trade Federation Senator, and had to go planet-saving herself.
• The ineptness of the Republic and the death of Qui-Gon Jinn either pushes Dooku over the edge or makes him vulnerable to the machinations of Darth Sidious
• Around this time, Master Sifo-Dyas (possibly in collaboration with Master Dooku, or maybe under his influence, goes an orders a Clone Army, and for whatever reason (it positively stinks of foul play here; pass the air freshener) deletes Kamino from the archives, and is promptly killed to stop talking.
• Dooku, now Darth Tyranus, leaves the Order and under Sidious's direction, spearheads a Reform/Progressive Movement by tapping into discontent.
• At this point, what Dooku thinks the Plan is that he's going to slowly start a war that will weaken the Republic and have a load of systems desperately loyal to him so that the Sith can destroy the Republic from the outside.
• Dooku polarises his Reform movement (he started off as 'Reformer' and went to 'Disillusioned Separatist' in his public image for the PR)
• Then he and Palps start stirring things up and sowing paranoia on both sides.
• After this is underway, Dooku contacts the Big Corporations for money
• The Megacorps, seeing their chance to bargain for less regulation and to get their own back on Padme Amidala, join up
• They soon become the Face and Funds of the budding Confederacy
• This money pays for a load of battle droids
• Now all we need is a spark to start a war . . . let's assassinate Padme Amidala!
• Or is it? It might just be an elaborate ploy to lay a trail to Kamino for the Jedi to follow.
• As it was, Obi-Wan Kenobi stumbled on Geonosis, either by accident or by Separatist design, and hey presto, they've got the spark to start a war
• Most of the Separatists didn't want war, except the ones issuing war bonds and manufacturing droids. They just thought the Republic was going to attack them soon.

Does that sound about right?

 

It is stated in the Essential guide to warfare there were battles without clones or droids present so presumably there were theaters with republic and sector and local forces fighting organic separatists, insurgents and dissidents, pro confederacy worlds fighting loyalist insurgencies and so on.

I imagine what we see on screen and in books is only a snapshot of the scale of the conflict.

 

And from A New Dawn endnotes:

http://www.farawaypress.com/fiction/books/swanewdawn.html

Was Skelly a clone?
Absolutely not. While the clones were the Republic's elite fighting force, the wars touched many worlds and would have at times involved local militias. They also would have required the services of a lot of people with different kinds of talents. Skelly was a combat engineer (a sapper or miner in the old sense); it's hard to see the valuable clones being sent off to do that job.

So, not everyone in the Republic Forces fighting, was a clone, just as not everyone in the Separatist Forces fighting, was a droid.

 

Pretty close, but a few things are off.

As AOTC presents it, Dooku likely killed Sifo and used his name as a disguise to order the clones, then erased the records before leaving the order.

Dooku is in on the Sith plan that will throw the CIS under the bus, however, he did not know that included him.

The attempts on Padme are just Dooku trying to show good faith to the TF to get them to join. As well as stop Padme from voting down the Republic army act.

It is not so much the CIS wants war, but the Sith, remember the Sith are only on their own side. They promise thd CIS a quick and easy victory, not a long and costly war.

The Sith's original plan was that the CIS would lead a sneak attack on the Republic, causing a panic that Palps could use to gain more power.

The Jedi discovered the impending attack by accident, but Palps being a good planner alters his plans so everything still works out for him. Irony here is the CIS who were planning a surprise attack are themselves surprise attacked.

 

That might be what's "likely" based on the movie alone - but the Starwars.com Databank confirms that Sifo-Dyas was involved in the ordering of the clone army.

In that context, it seems that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and assumed his identity, not to place the order, but to ensure that they would accept Jango Fett as the prime clone.

The junior novelization (and possibly earlier AOTC scripts as well) has the Kaminoans telling Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas had told them to expect Jango's arrival, with him arriving just when "Sifo-Dyas" told them he would. That was probably Dooku.

 

Such an interesting topic, it seems that with all the behind the scenes mechanations by Tyranus and Dyas, they clearly worked together on setting this up. TCW shows this by reaching into the Sifo Dyas story with Mr. Lucas still in charge. They state Dyas was unhappy with slow moving Jedi Council and had visions of the future of a war. TCW then shows us Sillman who accompanied Dyas on his last mission. He states later when confronted by Anakin and Obi Wan, that the order was placed by someone who wanted to be Sifo Dyas, which of course was Dooku. I believe Dyas would have ordered the army had Dooku not interfered thus then becoming a Sith named Tyranus.

I wish we got to see all the different factions and splinter groups of the Separatist movement instead of always battle droids. The Umbara arc is one of my favorites for this reason. I'd like to think of it as an actual Clone war.

Happy 40th anniversary Star Wars!!!!

 

I don't recall it being stated that Dyas was unhappy with the Council. What's stated is that he was removed from the Council for having extreme ideas, that he had a vision of a war and that the Republic would need an army to defend itself. I don't believe he would have ordered an army behind the Council's back. Otherwise there wouldn't be any point for Dooku to pretend to be him. He could have just let him do it and kill him after.

 

Which is what Silman says right before he's killed.

 

That Dooku wanted to to be Sifo-Dyas, yes. So that he could order the army and the Jedi could buy that idea whenever they discovered it.