main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Who are the Separatists?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GregMcP, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Dooku's masquerade was probably in order to ensure that Jango was accepted as the clone donor.

    Sifo-Dyas, after having been "removed from the Council for saying that the Republic needed an army" (extreme ideas) probably felt that the Council wouldn't listen to him - and that the only way to get the army the Republic needed, was to go behind their backs.

    I could see him and Dooku working together for a while - until the Sith contact Dooku and ask him to arrange Sifo-Dyas's murder.
     
    whostheBossk and HevyDevy like this.
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Jango was hired by Tyranus, not Sifo Dyas (real or fake).
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    But Sifo-Dyas (according to the Kaminoans, in the AOTC novelization) was the one who told them to expect Jango - "and he turned up just when your Jedi Master said he would". That would have been Dooku disguised as Sifo-Dyas.

    Dooku had to converse with Kaminoans disguised as Sifo-Dyas at least once - the question is when.

    Going by the Databank, it was after Sifo-Dyas made contact with them to arrange the cloning of an army - they set up the facilities specially for army-making, then Dooku sent them Jango.
     
    HevyDevy likes this.
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I'm going by the movie and TCW, no third party interpretations. My argument is that the real Sifo-Dyas didn't work with Dooku nor made any contact with the Kaminoans. It was all Dooku. It's established that Dooku wanted to pretend to be him. It's established that Jango was hired by Tyranus (not Sifo-Dyas) and that the Kaminoans know about Tyranus too. Why would Dooku need to pretend to be him? Because he knew that due to Sifo-Dyas' vision, it would be easy for the Jedi to accept the scenario that the real Sifo-Dyas had done it, so it was the perfect identity to take in order to place the order. He took him out, deleted the archives' data, and placed the order. Tyranus, an associate, woud hire the template and provide the necessary funds.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "Third party interpretations" are still official these days. Until they specifically retcon the Databank's interpretation of Sifo-Dyas (since we never actually get to see what the guy was up to in AOTC and TCW, only other people's claims about him), we are stuck with it. I think it makes sense that the guy actually acted on his beliefs - he believed the Republic needed an army - he started the process of getting one.
     
    whostheBossk and HevyDevy like this.
  6. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2013
    The Separatists were largely greedy corporations who left the Republic. We see a Separatist Senate in Season 3 of TCW, but it is made clear that they have virtually no real power (much like the Imperial Senate). Basically, the Separatist Council holds most of the power. Even then, they are mere pawns to the public head of state, Count Dooku. In turn, Dooku is a mere pawn to the true leader of the Separatists, Darth Sidious.
     
  7. True Sith

    True Sith Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2015
    It's hilariously ironic that all those planetary governments made a big show about leaving, only to end up represented in a Senate that was even more of a farce than the one in the Republic. Talk about a masterful con job by Dooku and co.
     
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    When two contradicting statements exist between the original work and a third party interpretation, I go with the original work. Specially when the later doesn't care about clarifying said interpretation.

    Except he couldn't have acted on his beliefs. How could he pay for it? The Sith were the ones who ordered (under the fake guise of Sifo-Dyas), they were the ones who paid for it. Dooku had access to funds, he was a count, he was a Jedi, he had access to the archives, he became a Sith and hired Jango. It all points to him, he wanted to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas. If all the evidence points to X and someone who didn't create the story says Y without any explanation, I'll take X.

    And even if he could pay for it, why would Dooku needed to kill him in order to pretend to be him? He could just let him do everything and take care of him later. But he didn't.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Problem is - Dooku can't be a Count and a Jedi at the same time. Jedi forfeit all worldly title and wealth - it was only after leaving the Order that Dooku was able to reclaim his title and wealth.

    Thus, either Sifo-Dyas and Dooku need to be working together to get everything done - Sifo-Dyas doing the Jedi stuff (being the front man to get the Kaminoans onside, deleting Kamino), Dooku doing the non-Jedi stuff (providing the money) - with Dooku killing Sifo-Dyas once he's won the support of the Kaminoans.


    Or, Dooku needs to do all the "Jedi Stuff" before actually leaving the Order (deleting Kamino) and the Sith stuff after formally leaving (using his wealth).
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    My understanding is that Dooku fell under Sidious's sway while he was still a Jedi, which is when he killed Sifo-Dyas and deleted Kamino from the archives. He officially left the Order sometime shortly after Qui-Gon was killed, which is when he posed as Sifo-Dyas to place the initial order for the clones.

    The plot point in Episode II--the idea that, to Obi-Wan's recollection, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the Kaminoans say the order was placed--simply has no reason to exist otherwise.
     
    Alexrd likes this.
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's possible. Maybe the Databank's interpretation is a holdover from the EU's interpretation (James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil).

    The idea that the "posing as Sifo-Dyas" took place after Sifo-Dyas made contact with Kamino and "set the wheels in motion" for army creation, might stretch Obi-Wan's AOTC comment a little (suggesting he's slightly in error) - but it does ensure that he is not completely innocent and being framed after death.
     
  12. charlydiaz

    charlydiaz Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 20, 2017
    I was so sad when they died. I like them. :(
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, because Dooku fell before he left the Order, thus the Jedi tenets no longer apply to him. He could secretly access his wealth behind the Order's back, just like he did everything else, while pretending to be a Jedi.

    The Kaminoans don't care about who comes to them. That's why Dooku wanted to pretend to be him, so that he could place the order in his name. So that whenever the Jedi discover the army, they can believe in the lie that Sifo-Dyas was the one who ordered. After all, he was the one who had a vision. Dooku, as a Jedi, knew about the vision so that was the perfect identity to use.

    He doesn't need to leave the Order to do that. He could leave later, which is apparently what happened since he was already working for Sidious while he was a Jedi.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.