PT who could have defeated/overthrown palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by jnrssa, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    After killing Mace and the rest of the Jedi, Anakin walks in.

    Palpatine: I told you Anakin, I had to do it because they were trying to kill me.

    Anakin: Ok, I don't care about Mace anyways.

    Palpatine: Every Jedi including the kids and Obi-wan should all be destroyed.

    Anakin: Ok my master.

    Palpatine: I'll execute order 66 because the Senate will do anything I say anyways without proof.


    As you can see, if Palpatine could have done that in the first place THEN Palpatine could've done that way before THIS STAGED DUEL.

    Palpatine didn't have an off day. He KNOWS HE HAS TO LOSE.
  2. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I didn't just see you posted the clip as it happens ;)

    and what is with facetious LOLing that's cropped up in posts recently..I wasn't aware I made a joke. Though if you found my post on the comical side...thanks I guess.


    The audiance knows that Palpatine staged the kidnap, Lucas was as you say describing whats on screen.

    The Palpatine and Mace duel is a total different kettle of fish, Lucas isn't an idiot, he'd have known that people wanted a clear answer and he gave it, Palpatine began feigning weakness after Anakin has entered the scene.

    Palpatine also isn't an idiot, having himself being cornered and on his behind on purpose defies logic, suppose Mace didn't do an over dramatic swing before Anakin's saber blocked the blow and opted for a quick lunge instead, suppose Mace didn't have a debate about who should live and who shouldn't, and suppose Anakin actually agreed with Mace, what then?
    Last edited by Sistros, Mar 17, 2013
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  3. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Well I don't think GL is aware of this debate. The way he mentioned this scene in ROTS it was very casual and just describing it and not answering the fans debate.

    He also said in the making ROTS book that Palps was holding back. His executive producer, I forgot his name also supports Palpatine. The dialogue and story also supports the setup.

    Palpatine knows Mace is there to arrest him and once he was disarmed he knows Mace will not go for the kill.

    And he knows Anakin would not let him die because of Padme.

    But at that time he knows Anakin is there to help Mace arrest him. Hence the point of this staged duel.

    He has predicted all the Jedi moves since the beginning.

    He REALLY doesn't want Anakin to go get Greivous but he did it anyways because he knows how the Jedi and Anakin would react.

    Anakin came there to help Mace and makes sure Mace doesn't kill him. Anakin didn't go there to betray the Jedi.

    What can Palpatine accomplish if Anakin, who is there to help Mace in arrest, walks in on 4 dead Jedi masters???
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup. That said, he might have wanted to fight Mace to a draw with Anakin arriving, slightly underestimated Mace, and as a result, got disarmed instead.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think the potential confusion here is that everyone knows, and is meant to know, that Palpatine is holding back at one point. A comment about Palpatine holding back can easily be about that point as opposed to earlier.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I never understand why some fans want Sidious to be all-powerful. It really cheapens his accomplishments if it was just an omniscient and omnipotent guy manipulating everything.

    Or is it just the power that attracts you to that character and nothing else?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 18, 2013
  7. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Sidious is NOT all powerful.

    Sidious and Yoda are on the same level. And the Chosen One in his Jedi Prime can defeat him.

    Sidious could NOT defeat the whole Jedi Order and or the Jedi Council by himself or with his apprentice.

    Hence that is why he has to do his manipulations behind the scenes.

    To do this, he has to rise in political power, gain an army and turn his # 1 threat to his side.

    He has staged everything throughout the PT from becoming Chancellor to the Clone Wars all the way to his own kidnapping.

    YET people are baffled saying that NO WAY he staged the Mace Duel.

    Even though HIM LOSING made everything he said BEFORE come true.

    This was set up all the way in the opera scene.

    This duel was staged to finally turn Anakin and to FRAME the Jedi Order.

    It's NO COINCIDENCE that HIM LOSING gave him the reason for Order 66, an Empire, and The Chosen One on his side.

    All of his manipulations has come to this last manipulation.

    This was Palpatine's END GAME.
  8. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You claim Sidious isn't all powerful in your eyes yet you want him to be a better swordsfighter than Mace Windu.

    So to recapitulate:
    Sidious is able to

    lie to everyone and fool everyone
    controls powerful pupils like Darth Vader
    can force lightning
    controls the senate, an entire army and later the empire
    is a better swordsfighter than Mace Windu and if he loses it is "staged"

    Aren't the first four things already "more than enough"? Do you really want him to be the greatest Gary Stu in the entirety of Star Wars? A juvenile power fantasy and nothing more?
  9. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    I can care less who is a better sword fighter.

    He's been lying and fooling everyone since Episode 1 BUT IF HE ALSO STAGED the Mace duel then he is ALL POWERFUL???

    He doesn't have to be ALL POWERFUL to staged that Duel.

    I'm going by dialogues and story itself.

    All the dialogues BEFORE this duel all leads to a SET-UP.

    This is NOT real life or sports where there are any given sunday that one team can beat a superior team.

    This is a movie, where THOSE DIALOGUES doesn't COINCIDENTALLY lead to all those lies that Palpatine said end up being right.

    Throughout the movies, everything he did has purpose.

    I ask again,

    What does Palpatine gain IF Anakin walks in and ALL 4 Jedi are dead???

    NOTHING!!!!
  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Sistros has already given damn good reason why it wasn't staged. Another would be that I doubt Sidious likes to barbecue his own face.

    And I still think that we needed to see Palpatine get his butt kicked by Mace. The Sith aren't supposed to be some kind of role model. They are supposed to be a warning of what can happen if we blindly indulge in our hunger for power. Palpatine, Vader, Dooku, they all have a pathetic streak on purpose. There's a reason why Yoda told us the dark side is not more powerful than the light

    The flaws and weaknesses and delusions of the Sith are part of what makes them fascinating.
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  11. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Ok let me get this straight:

    - Palpatine's offer was turned down by Anakin

    - Palpatine will be reported to the Jedi by Anakin

    - Palpatine still could not execute Order 66

    - Anakin's last words to Palpatine was that he will quickly discover the truth to all of this (Jedi rebellion plot)

    - Palpatine's last words to Anakin was if the Jedi DESTROY ME all hope of saving her would be lost

    So with all of that,

    Are you trying to say that Palpatine's goal was to kill Mace at that moment????
    Last edited by Sidious69, Mar 18, 2013
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Before Anakin entered the scene, yes. Not giving your best is a wonderful method to get yourself killed during a fight. These are fights to the death with laserswords. Every mistake, no matter how small can instantly lead to death. I doubt Sidious is foolish enough to not give his best in a fight against someone like Mace Windu.

    Of course, as soon as Anakin entered the scene his best chance of survival was playing the pathetic, weak old man.
  13. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Palpatine is giving his best to survive.

    But he is NOT there to kill Mace.

    What will he GAIN if Anakin walks in and see the Sith Lord just killed his 4 Jedi Masters??????
  14. Klingon Padawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    George Lucas's quote is that Mace Windu could kill Palpatine, and so could Yoda.

    "You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious".

    The other 3 Jedi were all killed by Sidious in a matter of seconds. If not for his Vaapad powers and his powerful Force reflexes, Mace Windu wouldn't have been able to fight Sidious.
  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    New
    Palpatine is giving his best to survive.

    But he is NOT there to kill Mace.

    What will he GAIN if Anakin walks in and see the Sith Lord just killed his 4 Jedi Masters??????
    -------------

    what is he to gain if he doesn't turn Anakin?

    he doesn't need Anakin for his master plan, it's not like Anakin is the key to turn on order 66,

    and if that doesn't satisfy you as an answer

    "look what the darkside can do, I killed all four Jedi like it was nothin', now how about you join me so we can save your wife eh?"
  16. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    He's been telling Anakin all of that way before this duel.

    And Anakin still turned him down and did not believe about the Jedi plot.

    People keep forgetting that Anakin was there TO HELP MACE ARREST PALPATINE and NOT to join Palpatine and kill all his Jedi family.

    Anakin was on the fence all this time SOOOOOO Palpatine had to do this to finally seal the deal.

    Anakin wants to save Padme but to become an evil Sith??? He was still not ready.

    Until Palpatine showed him a MORAL way out.

    He's been telling Anakin that the Jedi is going to betray Palps and if the Jedi DESTROY me bye bye Padme.

    And WHAT A COINCIDENCE .....Palpatine's prediction has come true in front of Anakin.

    And he does need Anakin for order 66 as a Jedi Witness for the senate.

    If the senate would just believe Palpatine just like that WITHOUT PROOF THEN Palpatine would've Executed Order 66 wayyyyy before this duel. He has the clones on his side since Episode 2.

    Listen to the dialogues it's all there.

    HIM LOSING made all his LIES before this duel COME TRUE.
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  17. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    He's been telling Anakin that the Jedi is going to betray Palps and if the Jedi DESTROY me bye bye Padme.

    And WHAT A COINCIDENCE Palpatine's prediction has come true in front of Anakin.

    ---

    or perhaps you can read that as "I'm gonna get my butt kicked, so if you do happen to stumble upon me before I see the maker, can you possibly uhh help me out"

    lets say for example Sidious and Mace were evenly matched (I assume you agree to this since you protest that it's nothing to do with Sidious being the better duelist) Palpatine cannot then "play" with Mace until he decides it's an oppurtune time to let himself be kicked in the face, it's foolish and suicidal

    if I was playing a game of chess with someone who was my equal I'd be a complete idiot to decide to not give it my all, I could be in serious trouble or even checkmated in minutes.
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  18. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    You see I didn't say Palpatine was NOT giving it his all.

    He is giving it his all in making sure Mace doesn't kill him. But at the same time not trying to kill Mace also.

    You see most of us has the luxury of knowing that Anakin becomes Darth Vader hence forgetting that he is a good person BEFORE this duel.

    Conflicted yes. But to be ready to join an evil Sith to destroy the good Jedi, not yet.

    Having 4 dead Jedi Masters before Anakin walks in will not help Palpatine's cause.

    Anakin is not evil and that will not turn him on and all of a sudden slaughtering the Whole Jedi.

    That is why Palpatine has to put him in a situation that Anakin has to finally choose and show him a MORAL way out.

    Palpatine has been saying that the Sith and Jedi are the same while Anakin counters with no, Jedi are good while Sith are bad.

    And then Mace suddenly sounded like Palpatine when he said, he is too dangerous to be kept alive.

    And on and on about the Jedi plot to overthrow him.

    Don't just watch this duel, watch all the scenes that lead up to this duel. It screams of set-up.

    Maybe Sidious foreseen that him and mace will battle to a stalemate like him and Yoda and that is why he has to do this or maybe not, but this duel screams of setup.

    He needed to give Anakin a moral way out, to show him his lies are not lies and to frame the whole Jedi Order.

    Him losing gave him ALL OF THAT.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That makes no sense. Either you give your all and try your darnedest to kill an opponent or you don't. Can't have it both ways. Fighting solely on the defensive is extremely risky because a mistake could happen any second.
  20. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Ok this is a moot point and I don't want to talk about the philosophy of fighting here.

    But it is possible to be on the defensive and sill not go for the kill. All Palpatine has to do is to hold off Mace until Anakin shows up. Which he can do for a short time which it was.

    If it was as long as the Obiwan and Anakin or Yoda duel then you are right and he can't depend on that strategy.

    But for a short time he could.

    But it's more about what happened before this duel that screams setup.

    Him LOSING made all his words before come to fruition.

    He has been faking everything from the beginning.

    But yet faking this duel is hard to believe???? EVEN though HIM LOSING finally gave him his prized apprentice and valid reasons to the senate for the Jedi Purge and creation of an Empire.
    Last edited by Sidious69, Mar 19, 2013
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Look, if you go into some sort of conspiration theory, the burden of proof is on you. But you don't have any real proof, do you? Only speculation.

    What we actually see on screen is how Palpatine gets his butt kicked by Windu. And ... that's it.

    Btw. the first sentences in your last post don't make much sense. Palpatine couldn't know how long the duel would be going on unless he is omniscient. And even if he were, not giving his all to kill Mace Windu is still an incredibly risky tactic.
  22. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Conspiracy theory????

    Pay attention to the dialogues for crying out loud and don't be distracted by the kiddie action scenes.

    Palpatine has been saying the Jedi are the same as Sith and they are trying to overthrow him.

    Palpatine has been saying there is this Jedi Plot.

    Palpatine's last words to Anakin is, IF THE JEDI DESTROY ME any chance of saving her would be lost.

    Anakin STILL TURNED DOWN Palpatine and saying he will quickly discover the TRUTH to all of this.

    How can HE FRAME THE JEDI and finally turn and convince Anakin of what he was saying if Mace is dead????

    He CAN'T because Anakin is still a GOOD person UNTIL Palpatine FORCE him to finally choose.

    And as for Palpatine's clairvoyance, ummmm he is pretty much the top on seeing things before they happen.

    He knows Anakin will come soon to witness everything.

    He can sense Vader will be in danger PLANETS AWAY against Obiwan yet you QUESTION his foresight in seeing the coming of Anakin buildings away.

    The Jedi Order was clueless that Anakin has a wife YET not only does Sidious know that Anakin is married BUT ALSO KNOW that he is having nightmares that she will die.

    We also see on screen that Palpatine was held captive and was being manhandled by droids. BUT IF YOU PAY ATTENTION TO THE DIALOGUES ON WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON then you'll know PAlpatine allowed it.

    Same here.
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Like he's forseen that Vader would throw him down a shaft? Or that Maul would be killed? His foresight powers aren't reliable and therefore he ... can't rely on them.
    If his foresight were as reliable as you claim that would mark him as a massive Gary Stu anyway.

    Yes, yes, I know the dialogue. What we also know is that Palpatine is a giant egoist. He's not the type to risk his life solely to turn a pupil, even if that person is Anakin Skywalker.
  24. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    Yoda and Obi-Wan during their PT days.

    Combining Yodas skill and experience with a youthful Obi-Wans fire and quickness would be to much foe Palpatine to handle. It'd be close but the Jedi would prevail to fight another day.
  25. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    you keep mentioning earlier dialogue like it's the be all and end all of the scene,

    If I was Palpatine I'd be concentrating on staying alive, the last thing I would be thinking is past conversations with Anakin, he didn't know 100 percent Anakin was going to turn up at all.
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