PT who could have defeated/overthrown palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by jnrssa, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I doubt it.

    "Strong enough to fight this Lord Sidious, you are not."

    Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters in seconds, all Council members and Obi-Wan's peers. While the duo might give him a hard time, it would end the same way, except Obi-Wan would probably die and Yoda would scurry away, leaving an fully human Darth Vader to run amok.

    I don't deny Obi-Wan is powerful, he defeated Darth Vader, Darth Maul and General Grievous. But in ROTS he's easily defeated by Count Dooku's Force abilities, and we've seen Sidious display the most powerful Force powers in the Saga.

    Obi-Wan would put up a better fight than Mace's posse, but in the end he wouldn't be able to beat Palpatine. Yoda probably thought the same or he would have brought Obi-Wan with him to fight Palpatine. After all, he was clearly the greater threat, without Palpatine, the Empire crumbles.
  2. Sidious69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Like he's forseen that Vader would throw him down a shaft? Or that Maul would be killed? His foresight powers aren't reliable and therefore he ... can't rely on them.
    If his foresight were as reliable as you claim that would mark him as a massive Gary Stu anyway.

    It's because of his Foresight SUCCESS in the Prequel Trilogy that made him OVERCONFIDENT in the Classic Trilogy hence his demise. He was so COCKY in ROTJ with his foresight. He relies on them alot.

    What we also know is that Palpatine is a giant egoist. He's not the type to risk his life solely to turn a pupil, even if that person is Anakin Skywalker.

    Yeah he will NEVER DO THAT because Return of the Jedi NEVER EXISTED. You know where he told Luke to strike him down and then just laugh with glee when Vader blocked it. Crazy Palpatine and his suicidal ways.

    If I was Palpatine I'd be concentrating on staying alive, the last thing I would be thinking is past conversations with Anakin, he didn't know 100 percent Anakin was going to turn up at all.

    Of course he knows. The last words on Anakin's head before going down there was Palpatine's voice saying "If the Jedi DESTROY ME, any chance of saving her would be lost."

    Anakin told him before he left that, "I will quickly discover the truth to all of this." So of course Palpatine knows a person like Anakin would want to be there. Just deductive reasoning from Palps.

    Like I said, Palpatine can sense Vader will be in trouble planets away OR see Luke coming to Vader way before it happened YET he cannot predict Anakin will show up later the moment Mace and co. showed up??

    He has been predicting everyones moves since the beginning.

    -He knows the Jedi will not give Anakin a rank of master in the council.
    -He knows the Jedi will ask Anakin to spy on him.
    -He knows the Jedi will not give Anakin the task to capture Greivous.
    -He even knows about Padme and his nightmares while the whole Jedi Order has no clue about Anakin's relationship with her.

    And Palpatine was NOT thinking of PAST CONVERSATIONS when he was dueling Mace. Those CONVERSATIONS was FOR Anakin to think about, just like this DUEL is FOR ANAKIN.

    Sidious is the REAL PERSONA while PALPATINE is his innocent FACADE. Palpatine has BEEN FAKING ALL THIS TIME since Ep. 1.

    Palpatine just like this duel is a fake.

    Why would he fake it??

    - To Finally TURN ANAKIN and to frame the whole JEDI ORDER so he can purge them and built an Empire for a more secure society.

    Ummm...well, He can still turn Anakin without losing to Mace.

    No he can't.
    -Throughout the movie, Anakin has been shooting down all of Palpatine's ideas of the Sith.
    -Anakin WAS NOT believing any of that Jedi "Plot"
    -And when Palpatine revealed to him that he is a SIth.....what did Anakin do??? He still REFUSED HIS OFFER to save Padme and RATTED him out to the Jedi.

    Anakin wants to save Padme BUT not want to be an EVIL SITH. So with this duel, Palpatine showed him a MORAL way out.

    "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in every way." ~Palpatine to Anakin
    "You did well Anakin, he was to dangerous to be left alive." ~Palpatine to Anakin
    "I know, but he was unarmed. It's NOT the Jedi way." ~Anakin to Palpatine
    "He has control over the Senate, he isi too dangerous to be kept alive." ~Mace to Anakin
    "You can't!!! He must stand trial!! It's NOT the Jedi way!!" ~Anakin to Mace

    Ummm...well, Anakin was going there to help Sidious anyways and kill every Jedi wether Mace won or lost.

    Of course NOT.
    -If that was the case, then he would have joined Palpatine the moment he told him he was a Sith.
    -Assaulted Mace the moment he got there
    -Anakin was there TO HELP MACE arrest Palpatine.

    After Sidious OBLITERATED Mace, Anakin first words was...."What have I done?"

    Does that sound like a person who premeditated to betraying his Jedi Family before he got there??? Of course NOT.

    Ummmm...well Palpatine could have persuaded the Senate without staging this duel.

    If he COULD THEN HE WOULD HAVE DONE IT WAY BEFORE THIS DUEL. The Clones are IN ON IT from the start. Why wait this long??

    Because the Senate and the public are dumb BUT NOT THAT DUMB. They need Valid reasons for the Jedi Massacre and becoming an Empire.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  3. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Exactly... Anakin went there in hopes of helping Mace and the others arrest Palpatine without Palpatine getting killed. Granted, though, the "without Palpatine getting killed" part was the most important part to him, which we see in that he went there right after the "ruminations" scene with Padme.
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Oh, so in the PT he is a Gary Stu. Awesome ... not. I'd rather believe the choices of the protagonists lead to tragedy and not that everything was "destined" to go downhill because Palpaphallus was unbeatable unless he behaves like an idiot.

    And what's with the Caps all the time? It got stuck?

    He was much more in control of himself during the PT (as evidenced by him keeping a facade for such a long time) compared to the OT. It's pretty obvious his mental health took a dive between the trilogies
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 20, 2013
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Maybe the lightning (his own) hitting him in the face fried his brain a bit?

    Would explain his behaviour in the Yoda duel.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  6. Klingon Padawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    I agree with you for the most part, but I disagree with you about Palpatine needing the duel to persuade the Senate that the Jedi rebelled.

    Palpatine could have persuaded the Senate of a Jedi rebellion without staging a duel. He told the Senate in ROTS, "The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed". The evidence that he used to frame the Jedi as traitors was his deformed face. His deformed face (as opposed to the normal looking Palpatine face), was what he needed to persuade the Senate that the Jedi were traitors.

    The force lightning melted off his disguise during the duel with Mace Windu, revealing his ugly gray skinned face.

    Palpatine didn't need a duel with Mace Windu to have the scarred face needed to persuade the Senate. He used the Force to disguise his face, and he could have easily used the Force to get rid of that disguise.

    Seeing his ugly looking Sidious face, the Senate would easily believe his lies.
    Last edited by Klingon Padawan, Mar 20, 2013
  7. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Of course he knows. The last words on Anakin's head before going down there was Palpatine's voice saying "If the Jedi DESTROY ME, any chance of saving her would be lost."
    --

    oh sorry I forgot Palps was a god and knew absolutely everything.

    All I can say is Lucas disagrees with you

    And I personally like to think that Palpatine was in real danger during his fight with Palpisith instead of "yawwwn, i hope Anakin comes soon, getting a bit bored, hold on I'll move towards the window, that might make this a bit more exciting"

    but each to their own I guess.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's possible that this was, to a degree, the cause- his hands are normal immediately afterward- but become grey with black talons shortly after that- implying that they were formerly disguised.
    Arawn_Fenn likes this.
  9. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I always prefered the idea lightning deformed his face

    1) I always assumed that the Jedi couldn't sense Sidious is because before that time he never really used the force in their Proximity, masking his true apparence would be using the force, then using the force AGAIN to cloud that he is using any force at all, a doubly whammy for the Jedi

    2) why would the darkside deform your face at all? as far as i know he hasn't done anything extremely evil in the past 50 years to warrant such a deformity,

    3) how can lightning "cut through" a force mask?

    you're right about the hands though, that is a bit odd


    Edit: this deserves it's own thread: been a while since the "what was the cause of Palpy's un-facelift" was posted
    Last edited by Sistros, Mar 21, 2013
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the Plagueis novel we see him massacre his own family.

    Plagueis also makes a point of saying that the Dark Side tends to ravage the flesh.

    Still- the novel never goes out of the way to portray his flesh as weakening, and him making use of the "mask" ability to disguise it.

    Sithisis, a short story that shows him doing such a ritual- is of dubious canonicity- being in Star Wars Visionaries, which was released under the Infinities label.

    That said- that book also had a short story with Maul surviving- way before TCW brought him back. Maul even looks almost exactly like the TCW version.
  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The whole thing with the face never felt right to me. They should have done more in the movie to explain that.

    I do prefer the idea that the deformed look is his actual appearance and that he was somehow disguising it as opposed to the idea that the lightning deformed him. We have never seen anyone get deformed by lightning in any of the films.

    It should have been explained, maybe even earlier on than in the Mace battle. I think it's a function of there being too much left to do the third movie, and too much wasted time in the first two.

    Sith did a pretty good job of tying up the prequels, but there was too much to ask of any one movie left on it's plate. The pacing of the PT trilogy is horrible.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 21, 2013
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    To explain Palpatine's ROTJ appearance, it has long been theorized that extensive use of the dark side can have such an effect. This concept appeared in many EU sources, including some released after ROTS.

    It can if it's a physical "carapace" rather than some kind of illusion.

    Or in any of the cartoons either, including TCW ( Savage and Maul got hit with a lot of it ). Or in any of the novels, though Plagueis asserted that it was possible.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 21, 2013
  13. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    that's the trouble I have more problems with,

    the more psychical it is, the harder (I imagine) to hide from the Jedi,

    I mean the council practically stare at him in the face in AOTC

    and as such (to the frustration of many I assume :p) I choose to take anything the EU says with a "LOL really? aww cute" as some of it is way over the top to me.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Physical, not psychical; in other words I don't think it necessarily requires use of the Force to maintain, though use of the Force may be required to create it. If the Jedi look at him and only see what they're used to seeing, I don't see why it would be particularly likely to provoke any unwanted reaction on their part.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 21, 2013
  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    yeah sorry, Physical is what I meant to type,I've just woken up and still groggy ;)

    so you're saying it's like make-up created by the force that melted away by the lightning?
  16. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    The way I saw it we see what appears to be Palpatine struggling as Anakin walks into the room (obviously what Palpatine wanted Anakin to see) and then, as soon as he has Anakin in the mental position he wants him in, Palpatine drops the act and immediately uses power that he could have used all along to blast Mace out the window.
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He couldn't have used his lightning because Windu still had his lightsaber there. We've seen what happens when someone throws lightning at a saber.
    But after Windu lost his hand (and saber) Palps could blast away without worrying.
  18. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Had he used as much power before Anakin's arrival as he used afterwards, I firmly believe that he could have blasted the lightsaber out of Mace's hand. As powerful as a lightsaber is, it is just a weapon, after all.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Evidence?

    I find it annoying how you people always try to theorize away what's shown on screen.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 22, 2013
  20. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    There is no evidence for the lightsaber thing, I give you that.

    But for everything else, it was quite obvious when watching the scene. Palpatine called out to Anakin and then held Windu off until Anakin's arrival. Once Anakin arrived Palpatine gained his trust by putting himself in a position where it appeared as if the Jedi were evil and about to kill him. After showing Anakin the 'evil' ways of the Jedi his plan to convert Anakin to the Dark Side was complete and he blasted Mace out the window. Its all there on screen.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What you find "quite obvious" isn't "quite obvious" to everyone else.

    I much doubt Palpatine was in the position to play stupid games. His life was at stake.
  22. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    He played 'stupid games' and put his life at stake in Return of the Jedi when he repeatedly asked Luke to strike him down in order to draw the Dark Side out of him.

    He played 'stupid games' the whole 13+ years leading up to Revenge of the Sith when he essentially went to war with himself in order to give rise to the Empire.

    All Palpatine ever did from the minute we laid eyes on him was manipulate; that's how he accomplished all of his goals. He invaded his own home planet to gain sympathy. He manipulated the senate to allow himself to become Chancellor (and remain there longer than his term). He manipulated his apprentices and used them as pawns to accomplish his goal. He manipulated the Separatists and allowed them to fight for a cause that he didn't care about only so that a war would start. He manipulated the Jedi and convinced the general population that they were the enemy. He manipulated the once-peaceful Republic turned it into a galaxy spanning Empire. And he manipulated Anakin into thinking that Mace Windu could beat him so that Anakin would have a reason to assist Palpatine in the destruction of the Jedi.
  23. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    What still makes me laugh is how many more clues did they need that Palpatine was the Sith Lrd they'd all been looking for? Lol. I mea take the scene where they Rescue Palpatine on the ship. Palpatine tells Anakin and Obi wan that hey better get some help when Dooku turns up because he's a Sith Lord. (Hold on, how do you know about the Sith?) Then he tells Anakin to kill Dooku (he then decapitates him) then it's a big rush all of a sudden to get off the ship, he tells Anakin to leave Obi wan (a Jedi they've known for 20 years) so we can't take 5 minutes to pick his body up? Why didn't Anakin turn around and say, 'Hold on Chancellor. Your acting, kinda suspicious! '
  24. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    The existence of the Sith wasn't exactly a secret. Wondering how the Chancellor of the Republic knew about the Sith during the Clone Wars is like wondering how the President of the United States knew about the Nazis during World War II.

    Well, yeah...they're on board an enemy ship filled to the brim with people (droids, whatever) that want to kill them and they just killed one of the highest ranking men in the enemy's army. I'd try to get off as fast as possible, too.
  25. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Well wasn't it just supposed to be the separatists that they were against. And now the chancellor (who's just a politician) knows that the Sith have been secretly leading the separatists all along? And he's against TWO Jedi! Yeah better got off the ship quick them droids have always posed a problem ain't they...?
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