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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Who Do You Think Darth Vader Kills 1st?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Ghost_Jedi, Dec 20, 2003.

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  1. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Let's not forget those animals killed his mother. I think "animals" is too nice a term.

    How many of you would condemn a guy who killed a bunch of Gestapo guards after his mother died in a concentration camp? That's what you're doing here.
     
  2. Fingorfin

    Fingorfin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2001
    It would depend on the circumstances under which those Gestapo agents were killed. Anakin killed those Sand People solely for revenge. The fact that they had killed his mother does not justify homicide.
     
  3. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    Well, if you want to REALLY put a spin on it...he snuck into the camp under the cover of darkness. It was light out when he left, so he would have had to fight his way out, anyway.

    So...it was all self-defense...from a certain point of view.
     
  4. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Fingorfin: You're a nicer person than I am. If someone or some group of people did that to my mother, I would trust no one other than myself to take appropriate actions for justice--especially on a place like Tatooine where there is no law.
     
  5. Fingorfin

    Fingorfin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2001
    He never tried to sneak out. He went to the front door with the intent to kill everyone in that camp, becasue he was angry. If he would have tried to sneak out and killed those that tried to stop him, and then left, it would have been fine. But as it stands, it is simple murder, and no amount of twisting words can make it otherwise.

    Anakin_girl,the problem with Anakin's actions is that it is vengeance and not justice. What he did is certainly understandable, and the desire for such retribution is normal, but he crosses the line when he acts on that impulse. It would not easy to walk away in that situation, and I'm not sure that I would have the strength to resist that temptation, but it still doesn?t' make it right.
     
  6. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    And what the Tuskens did to his mother is called...what exactly? Urban renewal?
     
  7. Fingorfin

    Fingorfin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2001
    The Tuskens kidnaped and murdered his mother. That is not in dispute. But the murder of one person cannot be used to justify the murder of another (or in this case a whole village).
     
  8. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    So you expected Anakin to do what exactly? Walk out of the camp with his mother's body, leaving the Tuskens to go about their merry way, celebrate the murder of Shmi Skywalker and 26 other farmers, and then go out and kidnap another settler and torture him/her to death?

    You're asking him to be superhuman here. It is not fair of you to ask him to be better than the Tusken Raiders you are defending when they struck first and without provocation.
     
  9. Fingorfin

    Fingorfin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2001
    So you expected Anakin to do what exactly? Walk out of the camp with his mother's body,
    Yes. That would have been the correct course of action.

    Of course I am asking him to be better than an average person here. Jedi are the "gaurdians of peace and justice"; that is not a job that should be entrusted to someone that cannot control their impulses in extreme circumstances.

    I am not defending what the Tuskens did. What they did was just as wrong as what Anakin did. Murder is wrong. Always. There is no way to justify what either side did here.

    The famers of Tatooine do have the right to defend themselves from these raiders, but that does not give them the right to sneak into their camps and kill them all.
     
  10. Kavic_Toth

    Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    //Looks around realizing that the hornets nest has been prodded and smiles...

    Here's the thing... Fingorfin is dead on the money on this one (no pun intended). He is not asking Anakin to be superhuman... he's simply asking him to uphold the Jedi code.

    The simple fact is that Anakin slaughtered the Tusken Raiders, justifiably or otherwise, out of anger.

    What have we all been told from the VERY beginning of this series?

    Anger leads to Hate.
    Hate leads to Suffering.
    Suffering leads TO THE DARKSIDE.

    Simply accept that, again, justified or otherwise, Anakins actions in the Tusken camp were out of anger and begin his decent into the Darkside. Thus, from that POV, Anakin has already been 'murdered', in his mind he has already bypassed the Jedi code out of 'righteous' vengeance, and this begins his ignoring the code and doing whatever it is he wants from this point on.

    Thus his decent to the Darkside.
     
  11. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Why isn't it fair?

    "I'm a Jedi - I know I'm better than this."

    I'm with Fingorfin - though I may understand what Anakin did, I'm not condoning it all.

    Or, as a friend of mine likes to say: "it's an explanation, not an excuse."

    Anakin should be held up to a higher standard than the Tuskens.

    The Tuskens have some degree of intelligence, but not as high as Anakin's - ESPECIALLY considering he is a Jedi. And I'd like to think we still don't hold to the "eye for an eye" rule - and even if we did, slaughtering an entire village is (har har) overkill.

    The only way Anakin could not be perceived as guilty of committing a horrible crime were if he was determined to be Not Criminally Responsbile for his actions - the "insanity" defence.

    But do you think Anakin was so insane with rage at that time that he did not know what he was doing?

    Even if he's really, really, really, really angry, it doesn't matter - according to our legal system, Anakin had the guilty mind - he contemplated and carried out his actions and he must be responsible for them.

    Anyway, just the view of someone who's taken too many law classes.
     
  12. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Anakin should be held up to a higher standard than the Tuskens.

    Oh please. They had just tortured his mother to death--and he's supposed to be nicer than they are after that? I don't think so. I wouldn't have been. If it had been me, the Tuskens would have lost a few limbs before they died. I'm thinking Saddam Hussein-ish style of torture here. Anakin decapitated them with a lightsaber and left. I think he did well.

    But do you think Anakin was so insane with rage at that time that he did not know what he was doing?

    As a matter of fact, yes. Hence his horrific regret afterwards. I know I would be that insane with rage.

    He is not asking Anakin to be superhuman... he's simply asking him to uphold the Jedi code.

    Which in this case is asking him to be superhuman. Most Jedi don't know their mothers, much less find them tortured to death.

    You think the Tuskens are murderers? So where is the condemnation for them? Why are you feeling sorry for them? Don't give me the "They didn't know what they were doing". They most certainly did. They went out of their way to kidnap Shmi, tie her up in one of their tents, and brutally torture her. They built fires and used tools--they were as intelligent as early humans.
     
  13. Fingorfin

    Fingorfin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2001
    I don't see anyone here feeling sorry for the Tuskens (with the possible exception of the children that were slaughtered simply because they were there). Where are you getting that from?

    They built fires and used tools--they were as intelligent as early humans.
    Interesting point. Yes, they are inteligent and should know better than to kidnap and torture their neigbors. However, you are agruing that if they do this anyway, then the family of their victims (who are more advanced and certainly know that such actions are wrong)would be justified in doing the same to them on a larger scale. How is a society supposed to function with a moral standard like this? Welcome back to Hobbes' State of Nature where life is nothing but a constant fight to survive and kill them before they kill you.
     
  14. Kavic_Toth

    Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Most Jedi don't know their mothers, much less find them tortured to death.

    And that is actually the entire reason that the Younglings are removed from their homes upon discovery of their potential at a very early age, before the emotional connection is made. It may sound somewhat cold, but this is the prime way to envelop someone with the attitude of no single one life being more important than the rest. Anakin shows this 'fault' yet again after Padme falls from the transport. Anakin is more concerned for the one over the many. Obi-Wan exhibits the 'exemplary' Jedi trait at this point, arguing that ending the war that could claim numerous lives was more important than saving Padme.

    Believe me, I truly understand your POV on this, Anakin_Girl. As a father, if someone were to do something like that to my daughters, there isn't a single life on this planet I would not take just to get to that person.

    But that is also why I am no Jedi. :D
     
  15. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    Uh huh... a_g strikes again :eek: :p

    I just urge you to drop this Tusken thing. She has a long and illustrious career of getting into this very argument, and no one ever wins it.

    Please everyone, for the sake of us all, drop it and get back on topic.
     
  16. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    yes yes, it comes up every once in a while, and nothing is ever resolved. We must all agree to disagree.

    I don't think this is one of those debates that it's really possible to win, although I would guess that Anakin_girl is in the minority.

    But what do I know? ;)
     
  17. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    Depends on which group you're talking to ;)
     
  18. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    I think the first person that the helmeted/black-suited Darth Vader kills onscreen will be Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH.
     
  19. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    Very good... stormcloud8... very good indeed.
     
  20. Ghost_Jedi

    Ghost_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Very good to see the discussion is back on topic, and I should have seen Adam's answer coming.
     
  21. EMPEROR_WINDU

    EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2002
    it will be a background jedi, then he'll prolly face off against mace
     
  22. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    His first Jedi kill will have to be someone of significance. It won't be a minor character. It is too important of a moment to be wasted on a nobody.

    Unhelmeted-Darth's first kill = Mace
    Helmeted-Darth's first kill = Obi-Wan
     
  23. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    I can see your point, Stormcloud,

    but in a way, I think it would be more brutal and surprising (and impressive) if Anakin as Darth Vader just cuts down some Jedi Knight/Master like they were nothing.

    I think it should be someone recognizable, like Ki-Adi Mundi, but no one along the lines of Mace.

    It would make the tension all the more impressive between Mace and Vader if we know going in, just how deadly Vader is.
     
  24. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    I agree that some early evidence of Vader's power would set the stage nicely for a showdown with Mace.

    But I think we will see how powerful Anakin has become right in the beginning, when I am guessing he will make short work of Dooku.
     
  25. Ghost_Jedi

    Ghost_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Im just not sure who kills Dooku: It could either be Anakin or Vader; but no one else. I could see a heroic Anakin take on Dooku, but fall in victory.
     
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