Mary Who do you think is Sifo-Dyas?

Discussion in 'NorthEast Regional Discussion' started by mon-mothma, Jul 4, 2002.

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  1. mon-mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 2
    I thought I might post this thread, because there are a couple possibilities, and this is one of the biggest mysteries of AOTC. At first I thought it was Palpatine, because of Sifo-Dyas/Sidious, and he seemed to be one of the obvious people. But now I think it might be Dooku for numerous reasons:

    1. Dooku left the 0rder and made the clone order about ten years prior to Episode II, around the same time the real Sifo-Dyas was killed.

    2. It couldn't have been Qui-Gon-he was killed 10 years ago, whereas Sifo-Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years ago. Dooku might have used his name and then sent someone to kill him, just to dispose of the evidence.

    3. In the AOTC novel, Lama Su says that the Kamionans wanted a Jedi to be the original host, but Sifo-Dyas picked Jango Fett out himself. Later, Jango says he was recruited by a man called Tyranus, who is obviously Dooku (Sidious called him "Lord Tyranus.") Jango couldn't have been recruited by two guys. And Jango was talking about being recruited to be the original host of the clone army, not to kill Padme.

    Unless the movie novels aren't completely canon, these reasons pretty much point right to Dooku. The fact that Sidious sounds a lot like Sifo-Dyas is probably just a red herring to throw us off the track. Does anyone have another reason to add to my opinion? A different one? A thought? Anyone?

    Son of M.M.
  2. Mogook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 4
    What's interesting is originally the name Sifo-Dyas was Sido-Dyas. But it was changed at the last minute I think. Maybe Lucas felt it was too close to Sidious.

    I had some theory about all of this after my 5th viewing, but now I can't remember it. I'll have to try to remember it.
  3. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    You're correct, Mogook. I'll be honest that I have no clue who he is. My assumption would be Sidious. But the fact that Obi-Wan knew of a Jedi with the name Sifo-Dyas who actually died just throws me for a loop. Unless.....Sidious shape-shifted into a Jedi Master 10 years ago....nah, too "out-there".
  4. Mogook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, that gets me too, that Sifo-Dyas was apparently a real Jedi. Maybe after he died, whoever went to Kamino (Dooku probably, Sidious doesn't get out much) ordered the clone army. The Kaminoians would know he's a Jedi because of his clothing and they would see the lightsaber. They wouldn't know how the real Sifo-Dyas looks.

    You might ask why Dooku or Sidious would use the name Sifo-Dyas to order the clones. A couple reasons. The most simple being his death was around the time they were ordering the clones. Second, Sidious/Palpatine is setting up the Jedi to take a big fall in Ep3. They were responsible for the creation of a Clone army, and a Jedi who left is responsible for the Separatist movement.
  5. mon-mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 2
    Don't forget, as was posted earlier under my screen name, Taun We described Jedi Master Sifo Dyas as a "leading member of the Jedi Council". I think the original theory posted earlier is a solid one.

    Dooku rightly assumed that a "leading member of the Council" would be accepted with a great deal of credibility by the Kaminoans when making such a large and unusual order for clones. Dooku had the real Sifo-Dyas killed off (we don't yet know under what circumstances he died) and assumed his identity when he placed the order for the clone army.

    The book, with Lucas' explicit blessing, specifically states that the Kaminoans had been directed to use Jango's DNA as "Sifo-Dyas'" hand-picked selection. Then, in the movie, Jango himself says he was DNA-recruited by a guy named Tyrannus. I also think that they are both Dooku.

    M.M.
  6. chewboxer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2002
    star 1
    All this evidence would point to Dooku. But how would you explain Mace's reaction to Obi wan when Obi Wan asked Mace and Yoda if Sifo approved this order? I think Sifo-Dyas has to be an entirely seperate character. Obi Wan knows of him as a noble Jedi as well as Mace and Yoda. How long ago did Dooku leave the order too? Because he had to have been the one to erase Kamino from the archives. I think the best theory is that there actually was a Sifo-Dyas and Dooku killed him or had him killed. Then Dooku claimed to be him to the Kaminoans because they wouldn't know the difference in the first place. Only the Kaminoans knew of the Sifo-Dyas title for dooku and he used his "darth" title to Jango. Hopefully we will get full explanation of this in EP3.
  7. mon-mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 2
    My point exactly, Chewboxer. I definately think that there was a Sifo-Dyas and that Dooku killed him. Patience, everyone. All will be revealed in 2005.

    Son of M.M.
  8. Mogook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, exactly. There was a real Sifo-Dyas. Dooku used the name to order the clones (don't know if Dooku killed Sifo or just chose his name soon after he died) and then he recruited Jango as his Sith Lord name.
  9. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    It's just the similarity of names that confuses it all. It would have been easier if Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace said, "Sifo-Dyas, nope, there was never a Jedi by that name." Then we the audience could better assume it was Sidious.
  10. mon-mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 2
    Here's some further evidence that Sifo-Dyas is NOT Sidious. It would be out of character. He never, ever does his own dirty work; not in the prequels and not in the original trilogy. He always manipulates others into doing his evil deeds for him...in his name. The only time he ever steps in and actually DOES something himself is when he tries to kill Luke in ROTJ.

    So, in my opinion, it would be out of character for Sidious/Palpatine to go and actually recruit the DNA guy and order the clones himself. Better, and more in keeping with his other behaviors, to get someone else to do it for him. In this case, Dooku/Tyrannus.

    M.M.
  11. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    But why such a similarity in names? Also, for such a high-paying project where the Kaminoans need to know Sifo-Dyas is good for the money, wouldn't at least one Kaminoan make the journey to Coruscant to verify this order is cool with the Republic?
  12. Mogook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 4
    I don't think the Kaminoans get out much. They keep to themselves. They don't care as long as how your manners are, and how big your...pocket book is.
  13. CplKav Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 1
    It can't be Sidious/Palpatine. Remember 10 years ago he was just taking over being Chanclor. He didn't have the time to fly out there and then hunt down jango to recriut him. Had to be Dooku.
  14. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    But see, Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda knew of a Sifo-Dyas that was a Jedi. They all confirmed he died 10 years ago. This was coincidentally the same year Maul died, Qui-Gon died, and Dooku left the order. The Jedi knew Dooku was alive and a participant in the Senate. Therefore, if Dooku's Jedi name was Sifo-Dyas, this wouldn't work. I suspect it's Dooku, there was a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas, and Dooku used that name. It's too confusing for this early in the morning.
  15. Fipe_Naz-mero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2002
    star 2
    Dear members of the council:
    Probably is the same dilema we had when we discovered that Darth Vader had killed and betrayed Anakin Skywalker. So it can be true... from a certain point of view. ?[face_plain]

    Right? ?[face_plain] [face_plain]
    Anyone? ?[face_plain]

    May the Force be with you... always.
    Fipe Naz-Mero, JK
    USA-NE REGION
    MARYLAND FAN FORCE COUNCIL FORUM
    CALIFORNIA MD

  16. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    True, but by the same point in the series we knew that Anakin and Vader were the same. Here we are at the second film in the series yet again and it's clear as mud.
  17. Takwolf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 2
    I think Qui Gon Jinn is Sifo-Dyas no doubt about it. I think he did not die on naboo his clone did and that is why he didn't vanish. The Dark Side made him age faster thus appearing to be two seperate people

    Just guessin'
    Tak
  18. EvilEmperorJohn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 1
    I'm curious to find out how Sifo-Dyas met his end, and how skilled was he with the force? I don't recall if they said he was a Knight or a Master, but sending someone to kill him might be a difficult challenge (though it didn't seem to hard for the droid army and genosians to kill them on Genosis).

    Apparently, Dooku left the order sometime after Qui-Gon's death, but I wonder how long he was out there before Sidious found him and made him the new Sith Lord/Apprentice. There's no doubt that Palpatine/Sidious masterminded the whole thing, but the identity of the true Sifo-Dyas is well known to the Jedi. I'm guessing that Dooku assumed his identity when he went to the Kamionans, but had the forethought to erase all data of that planet from the Jedi Archives before he left the order. This leads me to think that he and Sidious were in league before he left the order (perhaps not knowing he and Palpatine were one and the same until some time later). OR he had plans to use the clone army against the republic, and Sidious/Palpatine revealed the master plan to him and he let Palpatine use them for his own ends.

    Just some of my thoughts. I actually put the question of Sifo-Dyas' identity to the Jedi Council at StarWars.com. I wonder if they'll even answer the question at all.

    Last thought: it's probable that there'll be more info about this in EIII because of the fact that they'll be in the middle of the Clone Wars and perhaps should know more about how they came to be.

    :) I'm enjoying these discussions! :)
  19. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    The question is great, but I doubt the OS will answer it. It's probably too much of a plot element that Lucas doesn't want revealed.
  20. Mogook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 4
    Lama Su refers to Dyas as Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. And "Your master..." to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan didn't argue this, so we can assume Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master.

    I'm going with the idea that Dyas was a real Jedi and Dooku just assumed his identity when he ordered the clones.
  21. mon-mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 2
    I think that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas either alone or with the aid of Sidious. It may have been the act that completed his journey to the dark side and something that Sidious required as the rite of initiation. Probably in tandem time to the assassination Dooku erased Kamino from the archives to cover his tracks.

    Once the killing was done and the archives altered Dooku could go to a distant world like Kamino and assume the identity of anyone he wanted, in this case the dead Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

    M.M.
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