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Lit Who exactly deleted Kamino from the archives in the modern Legendverse?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Iron_lord, Aug 30, 2014.

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  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In Labyrinth of Evil - the order of events is portrayed as (around TPM, before and after):

    Sifo-Dyas commissions army/Battle of Naboo
    Darth Sidious contacts and starts corrupting Jedi Master Dooku
    Dooku murders Sifo-Dyas
    Dooku erases Kamino from archives
    Dooku leaves Jedi Order
    Dooku recruits Jango Fett on Bogg IV

    The Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere.
    The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.
    Dooku had given thought to seeking him out, perhaps killing him. But even what little faith he placed in prophesy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.
    Another would come, and another.
    As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sidious, for it was Sidious who had approached him. Sidious's boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn't taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity.
    But partnership with a Sith didn't make one a Sith.
    As the Jedi arts had to be taught, so, too, did the power of the dark side. And so began his long apprenticeship. The Jedi warned that anger was the quickest path to the dark side, but anger was nothing more than raw emotion. To know the dark side one had to be willing to rise above all morality, to throw love and compassion aside, and to do whatever was necessary to bring about the vision of a world brought under control—even if that meant taking lives.
    Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous. Sidious had recognized in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice—an equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku's commitment.
    One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change, Sidious had told him. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it.
    And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi Order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes ...
    Ten years passed.

    In The Official SW Fact File Issue 34 (this week's one) the Dooku article suggests that Sidious recruited Dooku, and that Sifo-Dyas commissioned the army, after Dooku left the Order:

    A Turn to the Dark Side
    A potent Jedi Master, Dooku was active in the field, meditating and settling many conflicts. At the Temple, his understanding of the Living Force and his mastery of the lightsaber made him a much sought-after teacher. Privately, he indulged his curiosity about the Sith Holocron, and slowly and inexorably he slipped into the shadows of the dark side of the Force.
    Dooku was only the twentieth Jedi to renounce the Order and willingly depart the Temple, never to return. The momentous event occurred not long after the Battle of Naboo had claimed the life of Dooku's former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn. By then he had become so utterly disenchanted with the Republic, the Senate, and the Jedi Order that he did not even join the many who had travelled to Naboo for Qui-Gon's funeral.

    Into Darkness
    Assuming the title that was his birthright, Count Dooku seemed to vanish into the galaxy. The Jedi Order, saddened and stunned by this loss, assumed that Dooku had gone into a prolonged period of contemplation while he decided what to do next. They could not have been more wrong.
    Upon leaving the Order, Count Dooku was contacted by, and then fell under the spell of, Darth Sidious. Sidious had been looking for a replacement for Darth Maul, someone better suited to the dark dealings that would spell the final end of the Republic. Aware of Dooku's power and his dark side leanings, Sidious took Dooku as his new apprentice and Darth Tyranus was born.
    In the eight or nine years before he re-emerged into the public eye, Darth Tyranus was busy on behalf of his new master. His first task was a dual one. A dark side cult had grown, commanded by another fallen Jedi called Komari Vosa. At the same time, Darth Sidious commanded Tyranus to discover a perfect template for a clone army that he wished to commission. To do this, Darth Tyranus posted an enormous bounty for the destruction of Komari Vosa. The ensuing struggle brought two candidates for the role of Prime Clone to light.
    Former Mandalorian warriors-turned-bounty hunters Jango Fett and Montross did battle for the bounty, with Fett eventually emerging victorious. Darth Tyranus eventually approached Jango Fett on one of the moons of Bogden and offered him the well-paid position of Prime Clone. Fett accepted.

    The Separatist Movement
    Having calmly dealt with the Vosa incident and found a Prime Clone for the Kaminoans, Dooku continued to advance Darth Sidious's plans.
    Dooku's initial moves to break up the Republic involved negotiating with innumerable star systems to persuade them to secede. Much of this work was done in conjunction with the Trade Federation, run by the Neimoidians, who were, in fact, mere puppets of Darth Sidious.
    Dooku skillfully drew the paranoid Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas into unwittingly aiding Darth Sidious's plans. It was Dyas, formerly Dooku's friend, that commissioned the clone army on Kamino.

    So, in this timeline, events seem to run:

    Dooku starts becoming corrupt
    Battle of Naboo
    Dooku leaves Jedi Order
    Sidious completes Dooku's corruption
    Dooku recruits Jango
    Dooku manipulates Sifo-Dyas into commissioning the army
    Dooku has the Pyke Syndicate murder Sifo-Dyas (from season 6 of TCW)

    So - since Dooku had left the Order before finding out about the Clone Army - wouldn't that mean he lacks the privileges to delete Kamino from the Archives, and would have to persuade Sifo-Dyas to do it?
     
    Jedi Master Kenobiwan likes this.
  2. Orman Tagge

    Orman Tagge Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2014
    Does this mean that the events of the Bounty Hunter game are canon now?

    I think it's ambiguous as to who exactly deleted Kamino. Could've been Sifo, or it's possible Dooku had the skill to infiltrate the Temple.
     
  3. BUZZINHARD

    BUZZINHARD Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 11, 2014
    In the book Darth Plageus the kaminos were starting the process of an army. So good old Palps well in advance of Dooku knew the location needed to be wiped. Dooku gets upset through out the whole deal of the Jedi not living to his idea of what Jedi can do to stop the corruption in the republic and states he was leaving the Jedi Order when Jinn dies. Thats when Palpy seeks out dooku. Makes sense to me that Palpy would show Dooku the idea of the army and has him delete the kaminos out of the archives..
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The Official Fact File is still "Legendsverse" - it's just a modern one that incorporates TCW and retcons things that cannot be reconciled with it. While still keeping a great deal of Legends material.
     
  5. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
    The Emperor doubts that you need to know that citizen.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    Probably still Dooku
     
  7. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2004
    Dooku did it sometime after he left the Order.

    He probably told Jocasta he had left his notebook in the library or something.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I suppose they might not have gotten round to revoking his Edit Privileges ;)
     
  9. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Yet another reason to dislike TCW, it screws up everything.
     
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    According to TCW, Dooku had Sifo-Dyas murdered while Valorum was still Supreme Chancellor. And I'm pretty sure this was before Dooku left the order. Furthermore, Valorum's aide Silman implies that Dooku's motive for killing Sifo-Dyas was to "become" him. So, most likely, the final version of events, as intended by Lucas, goes like this:

    Darth Sidious contacts and starts corrupting Jedi Master Dooku
    Dooku murders Sifo-Dyas
    Dooku impersonates Sifo-Dyas and commissions army/Battle of Naboo
    Dooku erases Kamino from archives
    Dooku leaves Jedi Order
    Dooku recruits Jango Fett on Bogg IV

    Or something like that. I know Labyrinth of Evil's version of events was based on input from Lucas, but I think he probably changed his mind for the TCW arc and decided to make things a little bit simpler. Emphasis on "little bit".

    edit:

    I like TCW's version of events better, because it fits better with what you would assume just from watching the movies.

    I like the EU and all, but I don't think you should have to read spin-off material to clear up a filmic plot point as essential as the Sifo-Dyas affair. And the EU's version of events is just too convoluted.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I'm not sure how much of a different the Pyke Syndicate addition makes - though it does seem like it makes Dooku less of a "take care of things personally" person.

    I'm told that Chancellor Valorum was the one who sent Sifo-Dyas to the planet where the Pykes killed him in the first place - which means it can't be long after TPM - and requires that there be a period between Palpatine's election and Valorum's leaving office where Valorum can still do things.

    I think that's how it works in real life in America as well - election - then a few weeks later the old president finally leaves and the new one moves in.

    It's possible that the OSWFF article is still loosely based on Labyrinth of Evil even if it changes a few things. They may not have had access to Season 6 when writing it.
     
  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Yet the Kaminoans in TCW knew that Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus were separate individuals.
     
  13. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Master star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    That timeline refers to the Dark Horse comics storyline & the DP novel, so it's not a part of the new continuity. TCW doesn't provide a precise timeline. Common sense indicates that he deleted the files before he formally resigned from the Jedi Order. But it's clear from AotC that Dooku was respected, even revered, by the Jedi Council and didn't leave with any controversy or animosity. There's even a deleted scene where Jocasta Nu extols his virtues to Obi Wan and says how sad it was that he left. He probably still had friends, high and low ranking, within the Order after he left, so even if he did it after his departure, it's not irrational to think that he still had friends and some access. Heck he would have had Sifo Dyas to abet him. The reluctance to think ill of Dooku is one of the footholds that Sidious has in his plans - probably why he chose Dooku in the first place. Personally, I think he did that before he left, unless I missed a specific line in the movies or TCW that contradicts that, feel free to correct me.Arawn_Fenn TCW also goes out of its way to show that the Kaminoans can't really tell one Jedi from another and that the whole thing is too "spiritual" for them to really waste time on; as DJ says in AotC all they care about is how much money you have to pay for their services. The_Phantom_Calamari My take on Dooku "being" Sifo Dyas had to do with him going to Felucia, posing as Sifo-Dyas, and leaving Sifo's body behind for the enemy to take possession of and declare the Jedi "dead" to the Council, ending the little war that was happening there.
     
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  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    Well, we don't know exactly how Dooku pulled it off. We know he has a specific "Tyranus" persona, where he obscures his face and communicates only by hologram, which he continues to use to communicate with the Kaminoans during the Clone Wars. I guess we can assume he disguised his true identity in some other way while pretending to be Sifo-Dyas. And his impersonation of Sifo-Dyas was necessary, in order to give the army an air of legitimacy in the minds of the Jedi when they discovered it.

    But I think it's pretty clear that--at least according to TCW--Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas at some point. Otherwise, I don't know why that line would have been included.
     
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  15. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Convoluted, well then why even bother with the EU? I guess I have to worship the ground George Lucas walks on in order to be Star Wars fan.
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Which is the issue - did he murder (or arrange for the murder of) Sifo Dyas before he left, or after?

    Labyrinth of Evil said "before".

    The new article seems to go with "after".
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Or he just continued to appear to them as Tyranus while implying that he was doing so at Sifo-Dyas' behest.

    You know what would have been a good way to give the army an air of legitimacy in the minds of the Jedi when they discovered it? To actually have Sifo-Dyas order the army in the first place.

    In other words, this is just another one of those things that would have been better off if TCW had left it alone.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe that's why the article keeps "Sifo-Dyas ordered the army" even if it chucks out "Dooku joined Sidious before leaving the Order"
     
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    The EU is supposed to expand the universe, not to provide essential plot points that you would be completely ignorant of just from watching the films. This is a special case because Lucas apparently intended to include all this in the films, but ran out of time. However, by omitting a more elaborate explanation in Episode III, the films gave a certain impression that differed from Lucas's apparent intentions. Judging from TCW, it appears Lucas decided to go with the version of events now implied by the films, and to expand on that. This isn't the first time he's done something like this. Arguably, he did the same thing with the explanation for Order 66.

    You don't have to worship the ground Lucas walks on in order to be a Star Wars fan. You're perfectly free to believe whatever canon version of events you want, as I'm sure you're already doing. But this thread is about the definitive official canon explanation in the Legendsverse, and given that TCW was officially higher up on the totem pole than the rest of the Legends EU, it takes precedence. If the thread was about the canon explanation before TCW came around, it would be a different story. But, as far as I can tell, it is not.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    But that wouldn't be becoming Sifo-Dyas.


    Yes, but there's no guarantee that Dooku could successfully manipulate Sifo-Dyas into doing that. And if he couldn't do that, then the only other option is to kill Sifo-Dyas and impersonate him; if he impersonated him while he was still alive, the Kaminoans might try to contact the real Sifo-Dyas and things could get messed up.

    TCW didn't really do anything except elaborate on the events implied by the movies. No one who was watching just the movies would ever come to the conclusion that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army. In Episode III, all that's said about the matter is that the Sith were behind everything. Combine that with the knowledge that Sifo-Dyas was for some reason killed under suspicious circumstances, possibly at a point before the order was even placed, and you get the picture painted by TCW. Which is what Lucas ultimately went with.

    edit: Just noticed I seem to have double posted. Sorry about that.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Fair enough. What first convinced me it was a possibility at all, was the AOTC novelization, which I'd read before seeing the movie.
     
  22. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    What is the point of looking for an official explanation to anything in Star Wars when the people in charge keep changing the rules?
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Mostly because, if someone else asks a question, it's handy to be able to point them at an answer, even if it's only "the most recent one".
     
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  24. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Master star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    I have to rewatch the CW eps in question but I walked away with the impression that Dooku killed Sifo after Sifo placed the order, in order to get rid of him, his purpose having been served (as a patsy) and there being no need for another ex-Jedi Sith acolyte running around, especially one who has accurate visions of the future (unless Sidious gave him the visions in the first place lol) ;) and is at heart a loyalist. I also think it's germane to remember that the whole point of the charade was to draw the attention of the Jedi to it eventually, at the right moment, not to actually cover it up - the cover up was meant to sound alarms when it was discovered, to put the Clone War phase of the plan into action.
     
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  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    That's interesting to hear. I still haven't seen those episodes (am waiting for the DVD).
     
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